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Memory, Identity, and Deception: Breaking Down Apple TV's "Surface" (Season 1)

• Niq & Jess • Episode 31

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What happens when you wake up with no memory, surrounded by people telling you who you are? In this riveting analysis of Surface Season 1, we unravel the complex web of deception surrounding Sophie – a woman who emerges from a near-fatal boating "suicide attempt" with complete amnesia, forced to trust the narratives others provide about her life.

Behind the facade of concern, Sophie's husband Nick wields troubling control, monitoring her every move through surveillance cameras and a conservatorship that gives him complete legal authority over her finances and decisions. As Sophie attempts to recover fragments of her past through experimental treatments, she's surrounded by a cast of deeply flawed characters – from Caroline, the "best friend" who secretly pines for Nick, to Harrison, Nick's obsessive friend who actively undermines Sophie, to Thomas, a police officer whose investigation becomes dangerously personal.

The brilliant twist that transforms our understanding of the entire season is the revelation that Sophie is actually Tess Caldwell, a con artist who had meticulously planned to steal $11 million from Nick before her elaborate escape plan went wrong. This discovery forces us to reconsider every relationship and motivation – was Nick truly controlling, or desperately trying to protect himself from a master manipulator? Was Sophie a victim of circumstance, or did she create her own prison?

Surface provokes profound questions about identity, memory, and reinvention. If you don't remember doing something terrible, are you still responsible? Can you truly change if your core nature remains intact despite memory loss? And most importantly, when trapped in a life that doesn't feel right, is running away sometimes the only viable option?

Whether you've already watched Surface or are considering diving in, this episode offers fresh perspectives on the psychological chess match at the heart of this captivating thriller. Join us next time as we explore Season 2 and Sophie's journey back to London, where she confronts her origins and investigates her mother's mysterious death.

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, welcome to next episode. I'm your host, nick, and I'm Jess, and today we're going to be discussing Season 1 of Surface. So we decided to split Surface up into Season 1 and Season 2, partly because I still haven't finished Season 2, but also because I think that they're two individual stories yeah, it goes. Yes, season two is very different than season one so I would like to talk about sophie and her journey in season one, and I like, I like the show did you enjoy it oh yeah, I thought it was good yeah, it was you uh, introduced me to it.

Niq:

I didn't know about it before, but it brings up a lot of questions about, like identity trust loss. You know, it's like you know how people are like, oh, I'm searching for myself. She's literally searching for herself.

Jess:

She is literally searching for herself and, yeah, that's crazy. So like the plot of the story is, this woman kind of wakes up from amnesia after a boating accident and she's basically relying on her husband and her friends to tell her who she is and she's trying to figure out her life, which is a very vulnerable place to be in.

Niq:

Well, I think to be more specific, it wasn't just a boating accident. She was told that she committed, that she was trying to commit suicide. So that's one of the things like she's trying to reconcile. She's trying to figure out, like, is that true? And if it is true, like what led me to that? Because everyone's telling her your life is so great, your life is so wonderful, you know. So she's trying to understand if everything is so great, like, why would I kill myself? Right? And what's interesting is, I feel like, growing up as a lifetime child, I am like primed to not trust the husband immediately yeah, yeah, I definitely from jump was like no, absolutely not, no this is sleeping with the enemy all over again, and so the like, as you meet people in her circle.

Niq:

So she has her husband, I believe his name is Nick Mm-hmm. She has a best friend named Caroline Somebody she's told is her best friend. Yes, somebody she's told is her best friend. Nick has a best friend and his name is Harrison.

Niq:

I wrote these down because you know, how I'm so proud of you Because I was like I knew you didn't know that. No, I did not know, um. And then later on in the story she meets a police officer who has to reintroduce himself several times, because every time he introduces himself he tells her another way in which they are connected. Like he initially introduces himself and says that he's investigating her case and then she finds out that that's a lie or he is, but he's doing it on his own time. And then another point like she learns other things about their relationship. But we'll get to there. So his name is Thomas, his name is Thomas, and then the last person in her little world is her therapist, whose name is Thomas. And then the last person in her little world is her therapist whose name is Hannah.

Niq:

So I would like to kind of go one by one and tell you why I dislike each and every one of these people. Okay, first off, her husband, nick. The reason why I don't like him is because he is trying to control her and lock her down. Like I understand his feelings in the sense that you think that your wife just tried to commit suicide and now she has, like this, severe memory loss where she doesn't have any long-term memories and so he he is really concerned. But it comes off as so controlling and so creepy it does it absolutely does come off as very controlling.

Niq:

She's like a bird in a gilded cage, literally. So she doesn't have a job she didn't have a job really before she lost her memory and so she really just spends her days like just running and occasionally volunteering, but mostly she's just jogging around the city Like she doesn't have anything to do, right? And I just think that that also like feeds her paranoia. So imagine you've lost your memory and you're trying to figure out what your life is, but you have nothing in your to figure out what your life is, but you have nothing in your life. You know your life is. Her life is so small it is. It's very weird. So that how do you feel about her husband?

Jess:

oh yeah, I didn't trust him from the beginning and, quite honestly, although he did not turn out to be as bad as I thought he was, because I thought he was the worst, like I'm telling you, I thought he had. I thought it as bad as I thought he was because I thought he was the worst, I'm going to tell you I thought he had. I thought it was his fault. I thought he had tried to kill her. I didn't think she really tried to kill herself. I'm like he is very controlling. I was scared that he might have been abusive, all kinds of things, but you can find out what he was, which was just controlling, and some of that was to protect her from herself. But still he was still over the top with it. I still didn't like him.

Niq:

I did not either. Now, neither one of us liked him once we got all of the details. Do you think the show, though, was trying to redeem him? Like they were trying to make you think that he was like a terrible person, and then, when you find out the full story, you're supposed to be like oh, he wasn't a bad guy after all. That's what the show was trying to say.

Jess:

I think that is what the show was trying to say and.

Jess:

I'm like I never got that and like, even to the end of the season, when she does end up kind of leaving him, I don't feel bad for him at all. I don't, I don't either. I don't feel bad for him at all. I don't, I don't either. I don't feel anything for him at all because I'm like that was not sustainable. You were trying to control her life.

Jess:

I felt like at some point she gets placed in a conservatorship because she can't take care of herself and make decisions for herself, which was true, but at the point in which we see her in the show, she should be ready to come out of that. And it just does not seem like he's doing anything that's going to help her get her freedom or to get you know, so he doesn't have control over everything. He's spying on her because, like the one thing the conservatorship is one thing, and I guess that would be debatable but like you following her and watching her on every camera that you can, having cameras in places that she doesn't know about you know what I mean. That's nothing to do with her safety. That's you being controlling.

Niq:

Plotting with her therapist. I feel like they were plotting together.

Jess:

I did too. I didn't trust the therapist either. I felt like he was plotting with the therapist. I didn't like how she consulted with him. Like I know there are rules, like when you have an adult who's not technically in control of herself, but I still feel like the therapist gave him way too much information, more than she had to. Even with that conservatorship in place, I did not like the way he introduced her to Caroline. Caroline is not her best friend. Caroline is not her best friend. He poses Caroline like she is. Caroline is his friend, his friend that he's had for a very long time. She becomes friends with the wife as a part of their relationship. But he also knows that Carolina is secretly in love with him and the wife knows honestly. Even when she had her memory she knew that. So I just feel like, yes, they had a friendship and they had a friendship outside of him. But when this girl wakes up and doesn't know who she is and you tell her, that's her best friend that also seems controlling and manipulative.

Niq:

It is. He wanted everyone to around her to be loyal to him and so, like, yeah, I thought that I felt like the show was trying to redeem him, but I'm like he's not redeemable because what? What you learn like as she's learning the truth and you go through flashbacks is when they met, she was a waitress and he was like at the very beginning of his career and it was actually her that helped him build his career up to where it is her, out of that situation where he no longer let her be involved anymore in creating those business deals, which I thought was very, very shady, because, essentially, she put anything that she really wanted to do on hold and invested in him and she believed in him when no one else did and then he dropped her and then wanted her to just be like a trophy wife after she really is the thing that built his business.

Jess:

Because, like, essentially she's a con woman and she uses those skills to get him into these, like, get him these great business deals by charming her, charming them, talking him up, getting people to trust him. Because he doesn't have that ability he is good at managing the money.

Jess:

And then, once he gets to a certain place and he doesn't need that anymore, he doesn't need that level of selling, he just drops her and then she has nothing, and that's part of the reason why I think she's also depressed. She has nothing to do and she was an integral part of the business, and he made it very clear oh, I don't want you to be part of this anymore.

Niq:

Right, just sit back. And it's so condescending Like, oh no, don't worry, you don't have to worry about that anymore, just sit back and do nothing. Like if she was a sit back and do nothing kind of woman, you wouldn't be where you are today. No, you would not. So, yeah, the husband is trash. The husband is trash and speaking of Caroline. So you find out once again in flashbacks that Caroline and the husband, before he ever met Sophie, they hooked up. I don't think it was a relationship, but I think that they had like fooled around.

Jess:

No.

Niq:

And Caroline did tell her that, and so she knew new, but at the same time, like one. I think that that's weird, um that you still have like this strong relationship with this woman, because it's very clear that carolyn is in love with him. But it's not even a question, and so I I really think, first of all, I would have never allowed her to be a close friend of mine, because you, you know she's in love with your husband. But also it's like, how can you trust her, how can you confide in her?

Jess:

Right, well, and that's the thing, is that, like that's why I feel like it's so manipulative to introduce her? Because, like, we don't know we know what Caroline and we know what the guy says their relationship was before we see glimpses of their friendship, but that doesn't mean that she still she wasn't friendly with her, but keeping hers at an arm's distance. Because when, after she gets, amnesia and her and Caroline go on vacation together and she asks Caroline to tell her about herself, caroline can't, which tells me that when she had all her memories she wasn't that close to you.

Niq:

I don't think Sophie is close to anybody, so no one knows. I don't either. Her name is not even Sophie.

Jess:

No, I don't either, but like when she had control of herself, so she still. She was friendly to you because she could see you're important to him, but she didn't confide in her because she didn't know anything about her.

Niq:

But also also remember that. So you find out like that um, sophie is unfaithful in her marriage and her husband finds out, and when he finds out he goes and he sleeps with carolyn. And so sophie finds out about that before the accident and they agree to stay together, but they agree to keep distance away from Carolyn, so for him to. What's crazy about that is you know she was no longer friends with her. She hadn't seen her talk to her in months, while you introduced her as her best friend.

Niq:

That was a shame, that was a shame because even if they were friends, at one point, you know that they were no longer friends and you know exactly why. But I honestly think that he did that not even for sophie, but he wanted to keep caroline close because he needed her. She was always his backup plan because she's very wealthy and you find out that he's in severe financial debt, like $11 million debt, and so I think he was keeping Sophie as a backup, keeping Carolyn close as a backup, because he knew that he may need to get money from her. He did end up borrowing $4 million from her. Yeah, who has a friend that can borrow?

Jess:

$4 million from her. Yeah, who has a friend?

Niq:

that can borrow $4 million from. I need one. Okay, I need one.

Jess:

Yeah.

Niq:

Anyone, anyone. If you have $4 million that you can let me borrow, you can be my friend, and that may sound trifling, so, and pretty much so. Carolyn is also trash, but to me personally, the most trash person is his best friend, harrison. Okay, you feel like Harrison is the most trash person, and I'm going to tell you why Harrison is his best friend. He's married to a man. That has nothing to do with why he's trash. Now Harrison is in love with Nick. Do they discuss it in the show at all? They don't.

Niq:

They do not discuss it in the show at all, but it is very, very obvious.

Niq:

Every time Harrison is around, nick, he's constantly putting Sophie down. He's always talking so bad, telling Nick he should leave his wife, he shouldn't like she's not good enough for him, he shouldn't put up with her. And you know, oh my gosh, she's got memory loss. Why are you sticking around? Why are you sticking by her? We also find out Harrison hired a private detective to follow Sophie.

Niq:

Now, what we learned throughout the show is the private detective is following Sophie and ends up falling in love with her and he creates a little meetup situation and that is actually who she ends up having an affair with. The police officer she ends up having an affair with. He was working on the side as a private detective and he is a stalker. He's a stalker. He comes in and he says that he pretends to be her savior, but he's really a stalker, he, he, he's a stalker, he. He comes in and he says that he's he pretends to be her savior, but he's really a stalker. And garrison walked that man into her life.

Niq:

She would have never, ever. I don't even know if she would have, like, cheated on her husband, necessarily, because she wasn't like, really she was unhappy and she was trying to figure things out, but I don't think she was actively really looking for someone to date. I think that was just kind of happenstance when she was already going through something. She was like a soft target and so that was Harrison. So you hired this private detective who turns out to stalk the victim and you don't even say anything. You never want to admit it to Nick. He is terrible. He's worse Because even though Nick, the husband, is very, very controlling, he does have a certain amount of love for Sophie. It's a little bit of an obsession.

Jess:

It is an obsession.

Niq:

You know, like when you see something in somebody that you know you can never have, like he has that obsession Because I think Sophie has like this light, that kind of draws people in and like people get really attached to her. And he doesn't have that. I think that's why he's kind of like obsessed with her, because honestly, at this point I don't think that there's anything that sophie could do where nick would not be with her. No, because, like you find out that she was unfaithful, you also found out that the $11 million he's in debt she stole from him. She conned it out of him and he knows that. And he still is like trying. He's just trying to make the money, bring the money back. He still wants to be with her.

Jess:

Mm-hmm, it's like a possession thing. Though he wants to possess, he wants her in in his possession. That's how he treats her to me yeah, very much.

Niq:

It's like that. He's like she's like this rare exotic bird that no one else can have. But he puts up with a lot he does cause she's not like.

Jess:

So this is the thing with Harrison like to do, especially before the amnesia. He is right, sophie's a bad person and she is dragging him down. You know, know what I mean. I still don't care for Harrison either, but he is right about his concerns about the effect that Sophie's having on Nick's life. He's supposed to be a con artist at first. He's a bad person he's like because, like the way he wills and does, business is not on the up and up, but he's just one of those who's just straight up. He's like I'm shysty, but he treats Nick like he's this golden boy that's perfect and that him and Sophie himself and Sophie are like the scum of the earth that don't deserve him.

Niq:

But can I say this Okay, nick would not be where he was without Sophie. Is she a con artist? Yes, she was using her powers for good until he cut her off, and so now she doesn't have any access, she doesn't have any power in the relationship, and so her stealing that money, yes, it's wrong, but I mean like he wouldn't have even had access to that level of money if it was not for her. So, although like Harrison thinks that she's like the worst, he doesn't understand that she was like being her best self with Nick initially, until Nick turned on her, and then she's like she's a better villain than anybody she is, you know.

Jess:

So I mean she's better than both of you.

Niq:

Right. So I kind of blame that on, like Nick, that she kind of turned on him, and I wonder if Harrison's like constant bad-mouthing of her is one of the reasons why Nick started trying to cut her out of things. I don't know, would you be friends with someone who's constantly bad-mouthing your spouse every time you talk to them? No?

Jess:

no, it's weird, right, it is weird, I don't know. At that last party, where Sophie is conning and it's at the point where she really doesn't need to con anymore because he's gotten to such a level of success, but she's still doing it, I felt like I saw jealousy in his eyes, in the husband's eyes, because of how she talks to men Not jealous, but not like that Jealous of her ability to do what she does.

Niq:

I definitely think so. I think that's part of his obsession.

Jess:

Yeah, I think that motivation to kind of turn her, to shut her down, was because he was jealous of her and but yeah, but like, yeah, harrison's bad mouth and doesn't help, but he also dismisses. He dismisses the stuff he knows she does.

Niq:

Like he also. So I, nick, understands that Harrison hates Sophie so much that when he tells Harrison about the money going missing he never tells her it was Sophie. He never tells him it was Sophie that took it Because he know Harrison would immediately went to the police. He would have rolled her over. He would have rolled yeah. Immediately so even Nick knows. Harrison never asked.

Jess:

Yeah, even Nick knows Harrison is trashed. Yeah, he knows they don't like each other, because when he realizes that Harrison is responsible for the death of her side piece, he doesn't tell her, he lets her think it was him. Right. For that same reason he was like oh no, these two will roll over on each other in a minute.

Niq:

Which is very, very weird. Why are you playing man in the middle between your best friend Right, especially when you they're like it's like he's in the middle of like this weird triangle, like carolyn's in love with him but he don't really want her harrison is in love with him, but he don't. He don't want harrison. Sophie likes him, but he's obsessed with her like she does, like she likes Nick. I don't think she loves him.

Jess:

I don't either. I don't know that she has the ability to love maybe not, I don't know.

Niq:

Like so in the beginning, all of them know I do too. Oh, I'm still on my everybody. I hate everybody on the show but her.

Jess:

She is not a good person. She's not, but I still like her. She's likable.

Niq:

That's how charming she is so the therapist. Now, of course, I don't know the rules, the way that you know the rules when it comes to therapy, professionalism, what's okay to do, what's not to do. One thing I can't figure out is we get to watch her therapy sessions throughout the show. I don't understand what the therapist's goal is With the way she talks to her, the questions she asks her. I don't understand what she's trying to do.

Jess:

She's trying to get her to accept that she committed suicide because Sophie is trying to figure out what really happened. She's struggling with accepting that and Sophie says a line that is so good to me, to the therapist and she was like you know, the therapist basically asked her when are you going to take accountability for what you did? And she was like it's hard to take accountability for something you don't remember doing. And I'm like that is a really good voice.

Niq:

It makes sense, and so that's what I'm trying to. That's what I'm saying. I don't really understand the therapist, because it's like the therapist will not consider anything other than she was trying to commit suicide.

Niq:

Even if she jumped from the boat, that doesn't necessarily mean she was trying to kill herself right and and so for the therapist to be so rigid and like forcing her to like agree to something that we don't even know is true, she doesn't know if she was pushed or not, or she doesn't know, if she did jump, what the reason was, and also, if she can't remember anything that happened before, why does she have to like accept that? I don't understand how. I don't understand what that does for her.

Jess:

I think I guess part of it, and I'm not saying I agree with the therapist in this case, but like I think she was trying to get her to stop doing some of the more dangerous things, trying to find out what happened, and like, stop some of the what appeared to the therapist as erratic or, you know, sporadic behavior and trying to finding, trying to find out. But like to me it was like no, she's just genuinely trying to put piece together what happened. But so I think I think she thought if she accepts that this is what happened, then she'll stop doing all this craziness to try to figure out and go into these alternative treatments, all of which I was like if she wants to go that bad, all you got to do is tell her what your concerns and then you still let her make the decision. I'll be like listen, x, y, z, dang, dang, dang, diggity, diggity down. Now do what you want to do. I'm going to be here regardless.

Niq:

To me her dad should have spent her time helping, trying to help her move forward Like how do you like help her create a new identity and to deal and grieve with the loss of her memories and who she was. You know what I mean it just didn't seem like that, the therapist was interested in helping her become a complete person again.

Jess:

Yeah, no, everybody. And I can't say that I've never had a loved one go through this. So like I kind of understand the lay people, but it was frustrating to watch everybody trying to force her back to this person that she was. And I do think that that's what would have happened outside of the therapist. I think everybody would try to push you back into who they knew you who to be. But I'm like, but it's so obvious, like she's never going to be that person again. She's. You know what I mean. Like let her figure out who she is from this point forward because the gag is she was never that person to begin with.

Jess:

She was pretending that is the funny part, that's, and that is why they really don't know her. It's because she was pretending.

Niq:

And so to me it seems like, yes, she lost all her memories, but she has remained her core self. She's still a con person, she's still a grifter, she still strategizes, she still can manipulate, make manipulate people like right and make people just like want to help her and do for her. She all of those things, her core self, it it stayed, it stayed, and all of the window dressings that she had put on, they're all gone, right and that's the thing is like.

Jess:

So people, since people really don't know her, because she really didn't have any close friends, because she's a con artist, people are trying to get her to go back to the facade that they knew the funny thing is even, but she doesn't even know that, like she can't understand that because she doesn't remember who she was to know that the person that they knew was not real.

Niq:

So I'm going to tell you my favorite quote that she said was it's hard not knowing your own secrets.

Niq:

Yeah, and I was like damn yeah, right for real, and so as she's going like as she's going in. So she I feel like her recovery was was going pretty good until thomas, the police officer, showed back up and basically was like hey, um, I think your husband has something to do with this, I'm investigating the case and you're not safe. And then that caused her to start looking for things. And you know, when you're looking for something, you will find it, because you will twist and manipulate things to to fit what you already like have going on. So she has her husband, who's being very controlling and she just doesn't fit in with what the what they told her her life was. And her husband's also not truthful about a lot of things Because he's trying to erase all of their past mistakes and marital issues by lying, they were not in a good place.

Jess:

When, of course and he's trying to erase all that and the fact that he cheated and all that kind of stuff he kind of gets a do-over in that way. I will say this I think the reason why the police officer showing up was so effective is because she already had a sense that something was off with her husband. She just couldn't put her finger on it. So, him coming in and giving her, she was like I knew something was wrong with this man, I knew something was wrong with this, you know, and it just, I think it ignited something that was already there, because she already was lying to him, because she knew that she couldn't be you know, even about basic stuff, because she knew she couldn't tell him the truth about you know where she would go, like when the therapist tells her to go out of town with him. And she was like, yeah, she said we need time apart. I was rolling.

Niq:

I was rolling. Yeah, she did spin that one actually really well, because she set the therapist up. Oh my gosh, like I've been having the same routine every day, I just need some fresh air. Like she really set the therapist up and she. What I loved about the scene is when she talked to her husband. She said the things that she said the therapist said were correct. They were true. That's, the therapist really did say it, but she flipped the context and I I'm like that woman is good, she's good, she really is good. She flipped that context really to get away from him, which, though it is crazy that she shouldn't have had to even lie to do it.

Jess:

Yeah, but she knew that she did. I'm like her instincts that something is off with her husband was right. It's just what was off was wrong, Because it's not okay for your husband to spy on you and have that much control over you. Like that's weird. I don't care that you were in a conservatorship. Like nobody has a right to be looking at you on cameras all day.

Niq:

You know what is so funny to me? I wonder if, when she woke up from her coma, if he would have just been honest and forthright with her, what would have happened If he would have just been honest and forthright with her? What would have happened if he would have been like you know, I'm so thankful that you were alive. We were in such a bad place. But this situation, if these are the things that I did wrong and I think maybe I pushed you to to want to do that, and I'm so sorry and let's work on things, let's start anew but if he would have just like, been transparent and open from the beginning, I think she wouldn't have that feeling of mistrust for him that's true, because he's not a good liar, because part of the reason why she even starts, you know, conning for him is because he's trying to do it and make himself bigger, but it's not working because he's bad at it.

Jess:

So, like it's obvious that you lying and you're not telling the whole truth, because you're not good at this. He does lie about stupid stuff.

Niq:

Like lying about a conference that you say you go to every year and you don't, when that's such an easy question like that. Come on, man.

Jess:

And she had you not. She almost got that information without you.

Niq:

Mm, hmm, like I, just I'm like, sir, you need to always tell the truth.

Jess:

you are terrible and that's the other thing it's like. So, since you didn't push her, why are you lying about the conference?

Niq:

because he, once again, he was trying to pretend like everything was so great. He was supposed to be there but he didn't go. Yeah, I think he was trying. I think at that point he knew she stole the money, I think.

Niq:

So what we find out is Sophie's real name is Tess Caldwell and she's basically she's a con artist, she's a scammer, and so her plan was that she was going to take that 11 million dollars and she was going to go off and like live a new life without him. And so Nick had found out about her infidelity and, in turn, cheated with Carolyn. But she was like playing a cool hand, like, oh you know, we can work it out, we can figure it out as she's trying to escape with the money and the way that she convinces him to give the money is she tells him that she's found like a business opportunity and you know it's. It's so ground floor that no one can know. And because she has spent so many like all of this time hooking him up with like the best business people and building his career, like he believed it so easily.

Niq:

Which $11 million? Like if my husband bought me a business opportunity and he needed a thousand dollars, a business opportunity and he needed $1,000. There would be so many questions like questions upon questions. So $11 million and it's not even your money he took money from. He basically embezzled the money from his company because they did not know he was investing in this business that she literally made up.

Jess:

It was a real business. Because, like she was masterful, she had him investigate the real business. Because even the way she played him, because at this point she knows that he doesn't want her to be as competent as she is. So she dangles the carrot and then she's like, oh, but you know, you know more about these things. Here's the company. And then she's like, oh, but you know, you know more about these things, here's the company. You take a look, you know, you know what I mean. Like I was like this girl is phenomenal.

Niq:

How did she get the money if the business was real?

Jess:

The business was real because, like, she was the intermediary though, so like, whatever accounts that he had to put it in, like did not go to the people Because, remember, that dude was pissed with him the actual, the guy who actually had the company I forgot about that that was a real person, this was a real company. She just that money never got there. So, like, their investment actually fell through because they were waiting on his $11 million. And so when he met that guy in person, he's like oh, I'm so happy to meet you. He's like F you, man, you screwed me. That's how he finds out that she took the money. He's thinking that they got the money and yeah, and then she didn't create an old account for herself and got that money in that account so, basically, thomas has convinced her that her husband has stolen the money and that maybe that could be motive on why he pushed her.

Niq:

He's also convinced that you know that he pushed her. And so what's hilarious is that, like they like the two of them are hardcore investigating the husband, like go, like she's disabling the alarm so Thomas can go through the house, she's recording his conversations like they are hardcore, like on the verge of busting the husband. And then, at the very last minute, she figures out that it was her that stole the money. And what made that scene so hilarious? So the husband and wife were at a party and Thomas was at their house, um, like, conducting an investigation, trying to get evidence.

Niq:

She ends up leaving the party and nick assumes that she has gone home. So he goes home to try to find her and she. He runs into thomas and he knows that thomas is the one sleeping with his wife. The two of them are there. Neither one of them leave. They are waiting all night for her to get there and they are actually standing out in front of the house when she gets there, which in and of itself is insane, is insane. She comes home, she walks past Thomas.

Niq:

Like he's not even there.

Jess:

Like she don't even know him.

Niq:

She walks past Thomas like he is not even there and like basically tells Nick, go in the house, come on, let's go, and he does, and he kind of looks at Thomas like eh. And so she goes in there and she's like, um am I traveling?

Niq:

was it me the whole time and so at that point, like she kind of drops Nick and that's when I mean she drops Thomas, and that's when I mean she drops Thomas, and that's when Thomas like really goes into full-blown stalker mode and yada, yada, yada, thomas ends up dead. But I mean he knew that she was married and he knew she was married to like a rich, powerful man. I don't know why he ever thought that she would run away to be with him. He is nobody and he has nothing. And if he was a good private detective he would know that she was a con artist. He would have figured that out, and then he would have really known that she would have never left him. So he is either a terrible cop Not for him anyway.

Jess:

Okay, I'm telling you he is either. It was not for him, anyway he's okay. I'm telling you he's a terrible cop. He's a terrible cop because, like so many times, he abuses his power. You know what I mean like to to get whatever he wants. Like he's one of those like I'm doing it in the name of the law, so it's okay, even though all the stuff you're doing is illegal, and I'm not talking about him being a drug dealer, but like he's like in getting other people to do stuff that's illegal at their job to for this investigation that he's not supposed to be doing for so all kind of stuff.

Niq:

So yeah, he's a bad cop I'm gonna tell you, police who feel like they can do whatever to solve a case, I call them detective staplers. No, he's a total stapler. Yeah, definitely. And so I'm like, oh, you actually I don't feel bad for you, you actually deserve that. And so Sophie, though, is really upset because she thinks that Nick killed the police officer, and she's really upset. But I don't buy it. I think that because she uses that when she writes Nick his dear John letter, she uses the fact that she thinks he killed the cop as the reason. I think that she's lying. Yeah, she just wanted to go, and she's like this will work, this will work, but she's not good enough reason. And he's reading this letter and he's like, if she came back today, he would take her back. Like I'm waiting for him to like pop up on her, because he is obsessed with her. He needs to go talk to Hannah. He needs to talk to the therapist.

Jess:

Maybe a different one.

Niq:

Yeah, yeah, I'm in. Hannah loves him, though, though maybe she'll give him the care I don't know. I just like I don't know.

Jess:

Everybody seem to fall in love with Nick and Sophie, so who knows, hannah might be in love with him too.

Niq:

Maybe everybody is in love with both of them based on her haircut, I would have thought she would have been in love with Sophie, but you never know.

Jess:

I don't even know that she likes Sophie. I feel like she don't even know that she likes Sophie. I feel like she don't.

Niq:

Sophie does irritate her.

Jess:

They irritate each other. That's why I'm like at this point, why you ain't requested that? Because they cannot stand each other. And it's beyond just the. You know, therapists challenge you sometimes and that does piss people off and that is part of their job to challenge you about stuff. But it's beyond that. They don't like each other.

Niq:

No she doesn't, it's not productive. At this point, that's what I'm saying. She doesn't get anything out of those sessions, I don't know. So here let me ask you a question, because I feel very strongly about this Is there ever a situation where it's okay to put someone in conservatorship?

Jess:

Yeah, there are people who absolutely cannot make decisions for themselves.

Niq:

It just seems like every time you hear about conservatorship, somebody is getting screwed over and I feel like we need something else.

Jess:

Well, that's what you hear about. You don't hear about the ones that are functioning the way that they're supposed to function, because why would you? And that doesn't mean that the that it still doesn't need an overhaul, but like there are absolutely adults who cannot and will never be able to make decisions for themselves, and it would be a detriment to them and everybody else for them to do that. And those are the cases that have them.

Niq:

I think maybe there needs to be like some sort of team, but where people are independent from each other. But where people are independent from each other, because it just seems like anytime there's a conservatorship, people work together to siphon from that person and keep them locked up. And how do we mitigate that?

Jess:

piece of it?

Jess:

I don't know, Because in everything there are going to be people who take advantage and do things the wrong way, Like you know what I mean.

Jess:

Whenever bad people have power, it's an issue, and so I've seen it go wrong in all the ways, whether it's a family member in charge or when it's like somebody the state has assigned to be in charge, and if you've got a person who is going to abuse their power in that position, they're going to abuse their power in that position.

Jess:

I think there needs to be a review process and I'd like you know, maybe every few years or every something like that, or a way that the person who was under conservatorship can request which they're supposed to be, but it just seems so hard for them to do that Like that maybe needs to be able to be made easier. But there absolutely are people who do not have the ability to make decisions for themselves, and if you give those people, you know, if you allow them to, and especially if they have access to money, they're sometimes going to make decisions that are dangerous for everyone. You know what I mean. But again, if it's working like it's supposed to, you don't hear about it. You're going to hear about the answer or not.

Jess:

So maybe there needs to be like an independent advocate, yeah, like someone who is outside of the conservatorship, who, like, meets with the person like monthly, talks to them and is like their, their, advocate yeah I mean, there's something overhaul and there's definitely in it, and especially in, like, the higher profile or the cases where people because, like, everybody who's under something like this does not have a lot of money, and so you don't hear about it you hear about the ones where people have an insane amount of money, you know. So, like, yeah, like, those are the ones that you hear about, and those are the people who, yeah, those are the ones that you hear about, and those are the people who, well, they're not the only ones who get taken advantage of. I think they get taken advantage of in different ways. No-transcript, so you at least know are familiar with what those person's limitations are. You know what I mean, because they're, they're just there's a lot of, there's a lot of potential issues with this. So, yeah, and someone that they can reach out to if they're being abused, if they're being harmed, if they're ready to, are like Sophie's, which should have always been temporary, cause she was going to get back to the point where she could care for herself.

Jess:

Whether or not she gets her memories back doesn't matter. She's a functional adult at this point. You know what I mean. I'm guessing that there was some point where she really couldn't, either, make decisions for herself. She was just that unclear to where he had to do that and he was able to do that. But it should have always been temporary for her because she was definitely going to get back to the point where she could make decisions for herself, and to me she's at that point when we meet her.

Niq:

So what's weird is he's like oh you know, it's so hard, you have to get lawyers involved and all of this to take it apart. Was it easy to put it together?

Jess:

Yeah, so what? Let's get all of them. And that bothers me more than anything. That bothers me with him, of course, but he's self-controlled, of course he's not going to release it and he is using this to completely control every bit of her life and to keep her with him. So I'm like, but to me, the therapist, that's one thing that she could have started advocating for, because part of this is you evaluating that this person is now able to care for themselves and make decisions for themselves. So I'm like why wouldn't you tell your client okay, you might want to consider starting to file paperwork to get out of this conservatorship, because at this point, you may not have all your memories back, but you can function as an adult. You can make decisions for yourself.

Niq:

You're not a danger to yourself at this point when she said she wanted to like buy some dresses, and he's like oh, I can take you shopping, like that was so I was so pissed.

Jess:

I was like, oh no, no, you want to control every aspect of this woman's life.

Niq:

No but yeah, because he could have easily just given her a credit card and said here you go or the money or anything, but no, he wants to know where she is at all points in time.

Jess:

He's constantly spying on her. Yeah, it's a problem, it's a whole problem it is. And because her relationship with her therapist is so bad she doesn't trust her enough to even tell her any of that stuff.

Niq:

Right, I agree, her relationship with her therapist is like I hate it.

Jess:

Okay, so this is Right. I agree. Her relationship with her therapist is like this is something that they said and then it kind of to me they never fully went back and explained. You may not Even season two. I question this, but I don't want to reveal anything. At some point they tell her that her mother was schizophrenic, basically.

Niq:

Oh, okay.

Jess:

So I've seen.

Niq:

I've seen, I think, episode one and part of episode two, so I know like her mom.

Jess:

She thinks that her mom was like murdered or something yeah, she does think that her mom is murdered, but I also don't think that her mom is schizophrenic so, but didn't Hannah tell her that in season one that she had a history of mental illness or something she did? Based on the fact that her mom was schizophrenic, which I think. She got that information from the husband, which I think is inaccurate. You think he just made it up.

Niq:

Yeah, I mean.

Jess:

When she eventually does start to you know, she alludes to the fact that she's not trusting James, and then, to me, hannah writes it off as oh, you possibly got paranoia and these treatments that you got that you're not supposed to get, could lead to paranoia and psychosis, which also I'm like okay, whatever, but Hannah is basing that on a history that I think that James told her, which I think is a lie, nick.

Niq:

Nick or James. His name is Nick Nick. Okay, I don't know.

Jess:

I think you made James up, okay girl, I'm going to call that man James.

Niq:

He's like a James to me, okay. So what would you do if you were in Sophie's shoes, where you essentially have lost your memories and, as you pieced it together, you found out that you were actually like a terrible person? How do you move on from that?

Jess:

girl. I honestly would have probably handled the way she handled it, like as in I'm out this piece. He's never going to leave her alone. Her husband is controlled. First of all, the first thing I would have done was get out that conservatorship like from the point. That I would have done was get out that conservatorship Like from the point that I understand that I'm in one. I am advocating on all levels to get out of that conservatorship With my therapist and if you won't help me, I'm getting a new therapist. If you won't help me, I'm going to the press. I'm going to do everything, because at this point nobody can substantiate that I cannot make decisions for myself and I cannot have access to my own money. So that's one Step, one, I'm getting out the conservatorship. If I cannot get out that conservatorship, then I'm handling it just the way she handled it.

Niq:

Because it's like do you really need to get out the conservatorship when it's based on somebody who you actually are not?

Jess:

Like on somebody who you actually are not, like she's not really, that's true. Like if I was playing on, that's true, that's true, that's true. So either way, like, but like I'm getting away from that man, I'm getting away from that man, that man, if he's not abusive now, he he going to because, like, once he realized he can't control every aspect of your life, it ain't got nowhere else to go yeah, I just think that, like if I found out that I was like a terrible person, I would want to just leave and start over, start fresh and figure out okay, yes, I used to be a terrible person, but let me start my life over.

Niq:

And let's see who I am now I mean I mean I still may be maybe, but let me just see, I I just don't see, I don't see how I could like stay in that situation because honestly, like watching the show, I felt like I was suffocating a little bit at times. Yeah, it was very like she was so isolated.

Jess:

Yeah, he suffocated, and that's part of the problem too. Like I said, the therapist seems like she's listening to the husband more than she's listening to her own client. All the people that you've been told your friends are not your friends. They're your husband's friends. You don't have anybody, so one. She might even have to make a new friend and establish a relationship so that she just has somebody else that can also help advocate for her, because all of your connections are his connections. Right, or do what she did, which is fake her own death and take your behind back to london.

Niq:

Faking your own death is wildly dramatic, especially like stealing 11 million dollars from your husband and then faking your death like I just feel like maybe there was another way to solve her problems.

Jess:

I wasn't mad at none of it. I really wasn't.

Niq:

It's obvious, though, that she's a runner, Because one of the things you find out about her as she does get some memories from going to like what was that thing, what was this? Was it hypnosis?

Jess:

What was that? No, it was even more experimental than that, because I'm like I don't think the therapist the therapist wouldn't have had an issue with hypnosis. It was something crazy.

Niq:

I can't remember. She went to hypnosis first and then she went up to the next place.

Jess:

Then she went to biofeedback, but neither the hypnosis nor the biofeedback were places that upset the therapist. It was that other experimental treatment that I cannot remember what the heck they were doing to her. Was it the sensory deprivation? I don't know. They started with sensory deprivation and they did something else.

Niq:

Because I honestly thought that she was just wasting her money.

Jess:

I ain't never heard of it, but it helped. More memories come back.

Niq:

It did, and so one of the memories that she found out was that she liked to ride horses and also that she likes to kiss girls, which I thought was hilarious, because I'm like that's why you don't really like nick for real, not even your type, so I'm just like she needs to like, like run, and but you also find I think she also finds out that she runs from situations when things get hairy.

Jess:

Yeah, but I just don't feel like. I feel like Nick was going to fight her on that conservatorship. You know, and since you don't have any money, you don't have any friends or you don't have any family, it is really hard to advocate for yourself in that situation.

Niq:

Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, I think running was her best option. Mm-hmm yeah, I agree, I mean, I think running was her best option.

Jess:

Yeah, I guess you could have played. That was the advocate got on Hannah's good side and it slowly turned her against James and got her to start advocating for you. But that's a long time.

Niq:

She really can't. No, I think it would be easier to convince Thomas before he was dead that Nick tried to beat her up, and then Thomas would have killed him.

Jess:

Or had him arrested or something like that. You know what? Thomas would have been her only advocate, but then she stuck with Thomas and it's like you're jumping from, but she's not legally bound to Thomas, so that still would have been a better like. Okay, let's say, if you're going to stay in your own life and stay in this identity, thomas is the best advocate. You get him arrested, get him out of the situation, because, also, nobody knows necessarily that you stole the 11 million dollars and unless they found that account with her name on it which might have come out in the investigation but you know what I mean she could have got him to go to jail, got the house, got everything.

Niq:

Actually, yeah, thomas is her best advocate but the problem is he's going to want to move into that house he is.

Jess:

he is going to want to move into the house. The thing is, you get out of that conservatorship, because once he gets arrested, he can no longer be a conservator. You get out of that conservatorship. You get your husband away, locked up. I don't care if he stay locked up or not, you get out. You are not legally bound to Thomas. The thing is that you never marry Thomas. You can never marry Thomas because when you're ready to, when you're done, when you be able to move, right, but that's her only advocate.

Niq:

Rough lady.

Jess:

Yes, I mean like none of the choices were great and all of them involved her continuing to con.

Niq:

This show had me stressed, because I'm like all of the information was pointing that everybody was out to get her. Everybody was lying to her, which, yes, everybody was lying. Everybody was lying to get lying to her, but really she was out to get everybody else and to get her freedom. She was moving these people around like chess pieces, right, you know?

Jess:

Which brings me to my question Do you think she really tried to kill herself?

Niq:

No, no, I don't either. I thought that they explained why she did it.

Jess:

My assumption was I think she was trying to fake her own death the first time. I think it was something about there was an island she was trying to fake her own death.

Niq:

The first time too, I think it was something about.

Jess:

There was an island she was trying to get to okay, and then she jumped too soon or at the wrong point yeah.

Niq:

I don't know like I felt like she she wasn't trying to kill herself when she jumped. I didn't fully understand why she needed to jump because I mean I think like you can jump off like a small boat and be okay, but like when you jump off like big ships, like cruise ships and ferries, I think like the force that you hit the water, it messes your body up. So I don't think she really was like thinking it through.

Jess:

Well, I think she didn't count for the propeller, because what happened was I think she was trying to fake her own death that time and get away with the 11 million dollars, but what happened, what you see is like the propeller like sucks her in and then she ends up hitting her head on the propeller and that's why she lost her memory. So I think she was trying to fake her death the first time and didn't jump off at the right spot and didn't account for the propeller at the bottom of the ship pulling her in.

Niq:

I just think that jumping off of a ferry without doing a hell of a lot of research is crazy. It's crazy because also the water seemed a little rocky. It just did not, it was. It's crazy Because also the water seemed a little rocky.

Jess:

It just did not. It was, yeah, Both choppy and their little chunks of rock in it Like, yeah, no, this was not a good plan. I get why you had to. And because James is so obsessed Nick, that man's name is Nick is so obsessed that he wouldn't have stopped looking for her if he didn't think she was dead.

Niq:

The way I would have cut myself and just put a whole bunch of blood because it was one of those fairies you drove into, right, or did she? I would have had blood all in my car. Some of my hair I would have made had blood like all in my car, or like some of my hair like I would have made it seem like somebody like chopped me up in little pieces, like I think I would have waited till like the boat docked before I jumped or something. I don't know she, just her plan was not that good. You know what? It reminds me of um and One of our, the first show that we reviewed, kevin can F himself, when the lady Faked her death by just like leaving her Backpack in the woods.

Niq:

She had like all of these Like crazy, like I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna Like be in his car and I'm gonna set the car on fire and I'm just gonna leave like a tooth in there. Like you know, it's like crazy, like not well thought out death faking, you know. So, even though she's a con artist, she needs to tighten up her game a little bit or just on her faking her death right yeah, yeah, the way she manipulates people, she does good.

Jess:

Her fake and her death Right. Yeah, yeah, the way she manipulates people, she does good.

Niq:

So, yes, so I'm excited to watch season two To see what it entails, but I'm just based on the episode and a half that I've seen. It's not at this point. It is not connected to season one because she's kind of going in her past to try to figure out who she was and you know, she's trying to reconnect with her old girlfriend, she's trying to investigate her mom's death, all of these things Like. If Nick pops up, I won't be shocked because he is crazy.

Jess:

Yeah.

Niq:

But it's not about him.

Jess:

But I see that as the connection between season one, season two. I do like that they are so different. I wasn't expecting that, but they are so different. But it is still her trying to figure out who she is Right and so, since she's originally from London, she's back in London.

Niq:

So, yeah, I can't wait for us to have that conversation.

Jess:

Oh yeah, yeah, I can't wait for you to watch it. I think you're going to enjoy it, yeah.

Niq:

Guys, I hope you really enjoyed this episode. If you guys have checked out season one of Surface, let us know your takeaways in the comments. We're always curious to know if the things that you think about the show line up to the things that we say. Feel free. If you completely disagree with us, let us know in the comments. We want to know. We'll see you next time, guys. Bye.