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Paradise, Privilege, and Toxic Dynamics: When Vacation Becomes Warfare

• Niq & Jess • Episode 28

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Welcome to our deep dive into the Mossbacher family dynamics from HBO's "The White Lotus." Behind the pristine facade of wealth and privilege lies a family at war with itself.

Nicole Mossbacher, a tech CEO who's broken glass ceilings, can't seem to win respect from her own household. Her husband Mark experiences a classic case of male fragility – resentful of his wife's success while enjoying its benefits. Meanwhile, their daughter Olivia performs revolutionary politics while vacationing at a luxury resort her mother's capitalism paid for. The hypocrisy would be comical if it weren't so painful to watch.

What truly captivates is how the show exposes privilege as a poison rather than a cure. The Mossbachers have everything materially, yet they're emotionally bankrupt. Their son Quinn, possibly on the spectrum, finds genuine connection with Hawaiian paddlers only to have his parents dismiss it outright. Paula, Olivia's "friend," manipulates a resort worker into a doomed theft attempt, revealing how even those critiquing systems of oppression can perpetuate harm when operating from privilege.

The genius of the Mossbacher storyline lies in its uncomfortable truths. We witness how the wealthy can take emotional and cultural resources from those with less while remaining oblivious to the damage they cause. Their accommodations drama – cramming three young adults into a shared space despite their means to afford separate rooms – perfectly symbolizes how they prioritize convenience over care.

By the vacation's end, the family achieves a superficial reconciliation that costs others dearly. It's a perfect metaphor for privilege itself: comfort for some built upon sacrifice from others. Join us as we unpack these fascinating dynamics that make "The White Lotus" such a brilliant exploration of class, family, and the price of paradise.

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, welcome back to our discussion of season one of the White Lotus. This is next episode with your host, Niq and Jess. And so I want to talk about another set of guests. I feel like framing like our discussions around the guests is like an easier way because we can kind of bring in the workers that way. And so I want to discuss like the family next is like an easier way because we can kind of bring in the workers that way, and so I want to discuss, like the family.

Jess:

Next, the Mossbacher family. Girl, you a good one, I wrote it down. I had no clue. Okay, so a lot of interesting family dynamics there. So the Mossbacher family is like a super rich Well, they're all rich, but this woman's like a driven career woman, she's like CEO of a company.

Niq:

I want to say she's the CEO of a search engine called Poof.

Jess:

And then the family consists of her husband, her son, a daughter and her daughter's friend, who comes along with them on vacation.

Niq:

Yes, and so what is interesting is you would think that, okay, they're going on this vacation I think it's like they're supposed to be spending like two weeks initially. I believe in like this beautiful resort in Hawaii and you would think that everybody would be like really happy and really excited like from the very beginning, like these people are almost on the line of depressed.

Jess:

Oh yeah, oh yeah, they're miserable. Um, the daughter is unnecessarily bitchy to me, like she really has an issue with her, like that bothered me. I I'm like cause you've? You've clearly this. They've been given everything. They've grown up with money. Our mom does everything, even to the point of paying for your friend to come on vacation which you have no value of, but like that's a big deal for this kind of expensive behind resort and she's just so nasty to her mom. There seems like there's some marital tension between the couple and then the son. I don't think they explicitly stated whether or not he is on the spectrum, but it's possibly on the spectrum.

Niq:

I agree, he's got something going on.

Jess:

There's something going on there, and so then there's tension between him and the sister. The sister pretty much hates everyone but the dad and her friend.

Niq:

I would argue that she doesn't like her friend either.

Jess:

Not fully. Oh yeah, not for real, it's a human frenemy.

Niq:

So Nicole, who is the mom, she's like the CEO and she's on family vacation, but she's still doing things. She's still working taking she's still doing things. She's still working taking phone calls, like doing emails, and I know that bothers the daughter I don't know if it bothers the husband, but it definitely bothers the daughter and the son is oblivious to what's going on completely.

Jess:

I don't know why it bothers the daughter. She doesn't want to spend time with her mom. I think she just wants to point out anything that she could see as a flaw.

Niq:

Honestly, yes, this is what I think when it comes to the mother-daughter relationship. Her mom is insanely successful and I don't think that her daughter feels like she can compete with the things her mom has achieved and so she's decided to opt out, and that's why I feel like she's so anti-capitalist.

Niq:

She's so not really, no, but in her stance, when it comes to her mom, she's like anti-capitalist and, you know, super leftist, and you know we need to tear down all these systems of oppression. She's like anti-capitalist and super leftist and we need to tear down all these systems of oppression.

Jess:

While she's enjoying all the benefits of the system of the oppression.

Niq:

And all the benefits of capitalism. Exactly, it's superficial.

Jess:

It is so superficial.

Niq:

It's not well thought out.

Jess:

There's a lot of buzzwords, A lot of holeswords and you know, but I honestly A lot of holes in her theories.

Niq:

Right, and I really honestly think it's because, like, she doesn't feel like that she can keep up with her mom's accomplishments, and so she's decided I'm just going to opt out and make you know, in order to make myself feel better. I'm going to tear her down Because that's one of the things that, you see, make myself feel better. I'm going to tear her down Because that's one of the things that you see, her name is Olivia. Olivia tears everybody down, everybody, and you can only do that when you hate yourself To be that committed to being so destructive to other people. That's because you hate yourself and you want everybody else to be in this much pain than you are. Yeah.

Jess:

Yeah, I think. I think there's an air of resentment between, like with everybody, but the son. The son is just kind of oblivious to a lot, but like both the dad and the daughter, like they benefit from and they enjoy all the fruits of the mom's labor, but they heavily resent her for it.

Niq:

A thousand percent. A thousand percent. The husband whose name is Mark. Does Mark work? That's a good question. I'm not sure. I'm quite sure he does work, but it's very clear that he's not as successful and that the wife makes the majority of the money and he does feel emasculated by that.

Niq:

He does feel resentful of that. You find out that he actually cheated on her and I honestly think that that was like him wanting to feel like he was getting back at her for her being successful. Yeah, agreed, which is so? It's such a weird thing and it honestly it's. It's common and I it's common it's common.

Niq:

But at the same time I'm like don't we hate this story? Like don't we hate the successful woman who can't be domestic, and you know so. She emasculates her husband and I don't even think she's actively trying. She does not emasculate her husband, he feels emasculates her husband, and I don't even think she's actively trying.

Jess:

She does not emasculate her husband. He feels emasculated right, which I honestly feel like is more accurate, because a lot of times, like and when men are in these situations, they act like the woman is is doing something to them. Now don't get me wrong, the mom is not a saint. She got her own problems, but like she's not emasculating him, he just feels emasculated and he takes it out on her.

Niq:

Right and I'm just like well, if having a woman who is strong and successful bothers you, why not go and find someone else who's not strong and successful? No, you won't have all of the benefits of the things that she provides, but you will have, I guess, that feeling of masculinity that you desire yeah, but you won't have that lifestyle either, right? Because I'm like, I think that's, I'm sorry.

Jess:

I think that's. The frustrating thing for me is that neither him nor the daughter, with all their complaints, will give up the lifestyle like both of you could. She could also up. The daughter could opt out complaints. Will give up the lifestyle, like both of you could. The daughter could opt out of the money. She could do things on her own. So she is anti-capitalist and believes and go live in a hovel and do whatever. He could leave and go take care of a woman who is not as successful as him and feel like the man. But they won't.

Niq:

Right Because I just I'm like I him and feel like the man. But they won't right because I, just I I'm like I don't feel like she's the wife is happy. I don't feel like nicole is happy in the marriage. I don't feel like mark is happy in the marriage. So I'm like why are you guys, why, why are you doing this? He doesn't appreciate the things that you know you're doing to provide for the family. Like you guys aren't connecting because she's so focused on, like her career that she's not creating time and space for them to connect, even with her kids. You know, like she's so committed to financially taking care of them that she's not there for them emotionally. Even the way she talks about the son when she's like, oh, you know it's so hard for young men his age, you know they're now at the bottom of the totem pole, like all of that, and I'm just like, listen, that is not the reason why your son acts the way that he's acting.

Jess:

We're going to ignore the young white man, and that's where the mom is also problematic.

Niq:

Yes, she's. She is problematic because, first of all, what she's saying is complete BS. But let's assume for a microsecond that what she is saying is true. That is still not the reason why your son is having the issues that he has. That man needs some like he needs like a support person. He needs like somebody teaching him life skills. He needs socialization like he doesn't have any of. He has no friends. He couldn't bring a friend on the trip. That's not because he's a white man and because people are seeking equity. Something is wrong with him. He's missing something and you're not paying him enough attention. You're not giving him what he needs and that's not just her job, it's his father's job too.

Niq:

But they are their children. As parents, they're not parenting their kids. They're just like financially taking care of them, but they're not like actually looking into their needs. Their daughter is a drug addict. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. She's a drug addict and she's miserable. I think she may even have a personality disorder like she's at. I think she may even have a personality disorder. She's, at the very least, a big, big bitch.

Jess:

She's a big, big bitch.

Niq:

And you're not helping her to develop morals and values and actually care about people.

Jess:

No, she's not. I'm going to be honest with you and this is going to make me the best person. If I was a mom, I would leave them all Except for the son, honestly, because, like, the son just needs some support and structure that he's not getting. But them other two. If I make your life so miserable, have at it, hoss.

Niq:

I would definitely like cut them off financially.

Jess:

And I'm like, honestly. Honestly, the way that the daughter talks to her mom is so freaking evil that I would like colleges on you. Whatever you do, after you know what, you ain't got to deal with none of my capitalism. I'm taking all of my capitalism and go with someone else. I'll put my son in the program. We gonna figure this issue out, but you and your daddy, y'all have fun.

Niq:

The funny thing is I would cut her off financially but still try to talk to her and spend time with her. I would. The point I want to prove is that you don't really want me emotionally or financially. You just want something to complain about, to give yourself like more depth. So you're not a spoiled little rich girl, you're a revolutionary who does all the spoiled little rich girl things.

Jess:

I would at least want to cry All the spoiled little rich girl things. I would at least want to cry People who don't have as much money To me. I'm like as much as you pretend to be anti-capitalist.

Niq:

You still judge people who you see as poorer than you, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely so. Okay, so, breaking down like each person and and why they are a miserable, entitled person. Um, so, nicole it, she's a ceo and she meets rachel, who is one of the other guests. Um, rachel is part of, like, the married couple and they're on their honeymoon, and so Rachel introduces herself. They have what starts out to be actually a really good conversation, and then Rachel mentions that she wrote a profile on her and Nicole gets so nasty and I was kind of shocked by that but wasn't the profile like a hit piece?

Jess:

what was it? Or did she say something crazy in the profile?

Niq:

but Rachel didn't see it like that one, which I thought was weird. Rachel said that she was repurposing a profile that somebody else did, and I'm like that one, which I thought was weird. Rachel said that she was repurposing a profile that somebody else did, and I'm like that's weird. Why wouldn't you write your own piece?

Niq:

right, but the but the but she I don't think rachel saw it as a, as a hit piece. She thought that she was like writing a nice profile and because she was basing it on something she got from a more prestigious newspaper, she was caught off guard when Nicole was like I hate you.

Jess:

She was, and I wish I could remember the exact phrase that Nicole was responding to, because I remember when she said it. I was like why did you even approach her If you said that to her about her.

Niq:

I can't remember. She said she rode the Me Too wave. I think it was something like she rode the Me Too wave.

Jess:

Okay, Let me tell you why. I would be pissed about that too, Because you're basically discounting all the hard work and everything that I've done to be successful. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time when clearly you see how hard this woman works and I'm sure to break in as a CEO at that level in a tech space. She has been working for years before she really took off. So to say, I wrote the me too wave. I would. I'm like I knew it was something. I would have been pissed too. Two things can be true no, no, no. It could be true that maybe the Me Too situation happened and it moved a man out the way and opened up space that I could be promoted, but I did not ride the Me Too wave. That man got kicked out of his job because he couldn't keep his hands to himself, and that's different. Don't act like you don't mean to me.

Niq:

I do feel like she was discounting her success act like you know to me, I do feel like she was discounting her success. I've when I. What I took a when she said it was that this woman had all had already been doing the work and doing the work for a long time, and the me too movement created an opportunity for her to finally move up to a space that she already deserved. I, because I just know I guess that's how and that's not how Nicole took it either, but I think I'm trying to give Rachel some grace on how she could have written it and not realize that the woman was offended because she was looking. I think she was looking at it differently. She's looking at it like oh, me Too allowed women to get the opportunity that they hadn't gotten before, not because it was undeserved, but because they're already going to look at men. But you know, that's what I'm saying.

Jess:

Nicole is a mess, but I would have took that the same way.

Niq:

Right, but I don't like. That's what I'm saying. Two things can be true like nicole could be offended because she felt like she was saying that she didn't work hard to get there. And rachel can be shocked because she was saying, like you're finally like me too is allowing you to finally get the place that you deserve. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but I just like it was just how quickly Nicole went from like girl power, women supporting women, encouraging her to be like I hate you.

Jess:

Mm-hmm, In two seconds. Again, I feel like I'm defending Nicole more than I want to, because I don't necessarily like her either, but like no, because like, yeah, I'm girl power, so I feel like you are not. You know what I mean. You know what I mean. Like if you are trying to make it seem like, and like I said, I would take it the same way. So I'm like you're trying to make it seem like I didn't really deserve my success, I didn't work to get where I was, or I was, you know, somehow riding a wave of something that had nothing to do with me. You know what I mean. Like the me too, like it had nothing to do with me.

Niq:

So I'm going to tell you who Nicole is Like. Nicole is one of those women who are like all about success, all about like power, power, all about women need equality and doors opened, as until they walk through and then the door can close. Because for her to make that comment, being upset about saying that the woman wrote the, she wrote the me too movement, but also saying it's hard for white, young white men, lets me know, that she does not like.

Niq:

Like you love hillary clinton, right, so you like, but you really don't care about people who are not like you and, and listen, I can agree.

Jess:

I don't get that from that comment because I'm like, like I said, if I I would, I feel like she would have, she would have been willing to help the other girl and she would have been like girl power with her which, again, to be honest and fair, is another white woman um, until she felt like attacked by her and I'm like I can't say that I would have acted differently, because if I feel like you're trying to attack me, then yeah, no, I'm not gonna help you in any way or be a mentor or be you know. No, we got issues, we got beef, but agreed in the sense of like she's not pulling up women of color, she's not pulling up anybody else, she just wants white women to have equality to white men.

Niq:

Right, like she doesn't like that's what I'm saying. Her equality extends to her, and then that's where the line is drawn To doesn't like? That's what I'm saying. Her equality extends to her, and then that's where the line is drawn, to say that like, oh, it's so hard for young white men who have always had privilege, every privilege. What is it? Isn't there a quote that says equality can feel like oppression, like when you've never like experienced it before, like when you've never experienced it before, when you've never experienced. You know what I'm saying and that's what it is. It's like, oh, she feels so bad for her son that he might actually have to compete against people and not get that extra push that comes from being a rich white male. And so she's like looking at him and knowing her son cannot compete because something is wrong with him.

Jess:

She's like give him sympathy.

Niq:

No, you give him resources.

Jess:

Okay, it's when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

Niq:

Thank you. Yes, so yeah, but yeah. So. I dislike Nicole as a person, but I feel like the way her family treats her is insane and nobody deserves to be treated like that yeah, and that's why I would be like I'm cutting my losses but when she got, like when she left the boat, crying like I, I honestly felt really bad for her.

Jess:

I feel so bad for felt so bad for her, and that's the thing. That's the two sides of it. It's because, again, I don't think that she's a good person either, but I did feel bad for her and I didn't want the husband to go after her. I was like, no, let her have a moment, just let her have a moment. She needs to be away from y'all.

Niq:

Get your behind on herself, because none of you, you all- and take every single moment to let her know that you do not want to be bothered with her. Right like the husband's selfishness. So he's already like committed adultery. Right, he's committed adultery and she has forgiven him, but she's still not over. There's still some hurt there and the the thing that she asked for in that situation is to keep it between the two of them and not involve the children. The husband has an identity crisis because he finds out that his dad was closeted and he ends up dying of AIDS. And he thought his dad died of cancer, like when he was like 15. This man is clearly pushing 50 and he spirals and somehow that spiral spirals into him, like divulging to the son that he cheated on his mom and that to pay her back he bought her a $75,000 bracelet.

Jess:

Yeah, probably for with her money he specified $75,000 bracelet. Yeah.

Niq:

Probably with her money, but also it was not with his. He specified I spent my own money on it.

Jess:

Oh, he did say that.

Niq:

He did. But this is immediately what I thought. The reason why you have $75,000 to spend on that bracelet is probably because she's paying the living expenses, true, you?

Jess:

know what I'm saying?

Niq:

I don't believe you guys are going 50 50 and you bought her that 75 000 by your slave. So in a sense, she's still paying for it because she's paying for your lifestyle. But it's I and so like the the dad's identity crisis. It it's like he's like I didn't know the real truth about my father and I don't feel like I'm a good father. So I need to try to find a way to connect with my son.

Jess:

And I would say this on on his face I get him that that find out the truth about his father throwing him and him having to reconcile with that. Because I think, like to me, the daughter focused on like or just kind of brush past it. He's like, oh, it's okay that him having to reconcile with that, because I think, like to me, the daughter focused on like or just kind of brush past it's like, oh, it's okay that your dad was gay. I'm like, he's not. It's not just about that. He found out that he didn't really know his father, like he thought he knew his father. I'm like. But like and let's not gloss over the fact that he's also reconciled like his dad essentially cheated on his mother, their entire marriage, you know what I mean. Like it's a lot. It's not just about him finding out that his father was gay. You know, I'm like. It's like I did not know this man. Now he then takes it to a weird place when he talks to Armand. But yeah, he does. But I do understand that throwing him.

Niq:

He had an idea of who his father was and he measured himself up against that his whole life, right, and so finding out that he didn't know his dad at all, he kind of lost his bearing on. Well, who am I if I've always compared myself to who I thought he was? If he's not the person that I thought he was, then I no longer know who I am and how do I measure myself? That part I absolutely get. Yes, and I feel like the daughter was very disrespectful because she was trying to make it about like homophobia and I don't.

Niq:

It wasn't about homophobia, it was about sense of identity. Yeah, you know.

Jess:

And it's a little bit in there, but it was such the it it wasn't in the conversation he was having with her.

Niq:

I feel like the homophobia came out more so in the conversation he was having with Armand but like it was, like if I don't know that it, I don't know that the, I don't know that the dad might be the wrong term, but it's incredibly invasive.

Jess:

The question he asked our mom and you have no business asking anybody that that you're not like it would be different if that was your homie, like if you, if you and a person were close friends. Sometimes close friends have weird conversations but you don't notice man.

Niq:

Right, that is incredibly invasive. That comes back to the pushing boundaries. They push a lot of these guests, these VIP guests. They expect to be treated a certain way and they feel like they can push boundaries because, yeah, like he asked Armand if basically anal sex was, enjoyable and what is most hilarious about that situation is Armand did not get offended by the question at all.

Niq:

Armand was like get offended by the question at all. Armand was like, oh, you're interested, do you want to find out? And the guy's like no, no. But Armand like from that point on, from that point on, armand's like I'm going to get you.

Jess:

I think he was.

Niq:

Armand's response to that question is my favorite part of the show. It was so hilarious. But I can't even fault Armand, because that's a wild question to ask. We don't know each other, right? We're just at a bar talking and you're all of a sudden asking me how anal sex feels like, clearly knowing that I'm not heterosexual like you. You I feel like okay. So you know how, like in some like there was like a time where it was not okay to be gay and so in order to like find partners and things like that, like gay people would like they would use innuendo and secret codes and all of that stuff to try to find a partner without fully exposed. And I'm like I feel like Armand was thinking that maybe that's what Mark was trying to do, so he's like well, I'm going to let you know that I'm interested. Even in front of his family, armand was like let me know, you can get it. And even the family picked up. Yeah, that was hilarious, that's a little weird, yeah that.

Jess:

That was.

Niq:

That was my favorite part of the show so, yeah, I don't, like I said, I don't know that his question was necessarily rooted in homophobia, but I think it necessarily rooted in homophobia, but I think it was rooted in the why was this?

Niq:

Oh, a thousand percent it was inappropriate, but why was this thing more important than me and my mom and our family? I think it's what he was. I think it was what he was trying to question, because he felt like his dad doing that like was more important somehow took away from. He felt like his dad doing that like was more important, somehow took away from his dad being his dad and being there for him because he had the secret life and he ended up dying because of it. And I just think that that's of course. He just got this information, so he's trying to figure out all of his feelings that you did not know and the fact that you had all of these fond memories of your dad should let you know that he did not choose the lifestyle over you. It was just a component that you did not know about.

Jess:

Maybe he can get to that one day. I don't know. I can't get past the fact that you are still in a relationship with my mom. You've taken my mom essentially off the market and taken her in a place where she never gets a chance to find love and you are exposing her because the other thing is like okay, you now know your dad died of AIDS. Did he expose your mom? Did they stop sleeping? You know what I mean.

Niq:

Right. We don't know enough about the mom to know what from her perspective. We don't know what she had going on on the side. We don't know anything about that.

Jess:

And I don't know if his mom is dead too, but, like to me, all of that would be running through my head Like, oh my God, so you've exposed my mom to this. You know what I mean. I just feel like his breakdown was understandable and like it would get, but where he would have stepped too far was the way he was talking to our mom and also revealing that situation that the mom wanted private right to his son, but even the way he was talking about his talking to his son too, like because he also fed his son that emasculation BS.

Jess:

And to the point where you could tell because his son too, like because he also fed his son that emasculation bs. And to the point where you could tell because his son parented it back and you could tell I'm like, oh, so they're training him to think that he's somehow oppressed because he's a white man yes, yes, I told you, they are terrible parents they're terrible.

Jess:

Yeah, and I'm like, and I'm like the son already has issues connecting with people and you've already set him up to believe that successful women are emasculating to men right, I do actually want to talk about the son next and I have a very controversial take that I will tell you when we discuss this.

Niq:

So, quinn, he seems to be like he's like 16 and he didn't have a friend that he could bring on the trip and he spends way too much time on his phone and like playing, like video games, and he really doesn't know how to exist like out in the real world. But he also his sister, like really doesn't know how to exist like out in the real world, but he also his sister, like he doesn't have a good relationship with his sister, like his sister is mean His sister is evil, like she has no empathy for him at all.

Niq:

None, none. And I just think that that is very, very strange, like I know that not every sibling relationship, not every sibling group is super close, but like she never really, you never really see her show him any kindness, none.

Jess:

None, and it's very very odd. But she doesn't show anybody any kindness. But she's particularly harsh with him and the mom. She's harsh with the and the mom, she's harsh Right.

Niq:

Right and I can't. I can't understand it, but my question is he's 16 and he's acting like this. I don't understand why his parents have not intervened and done something, some kind of intervention with him.

Jess:

Yeah, I cannot understand and I know this is a minor point With all the money they have, why did they get them separate rooms?

Niq:

No, that is a huge. It's not a minor point, it's a huge point. That room, the room situation does not make sense. She is a CEO. Why would you get a suite with one bedroom and three children? Would you get a suite with one bedroom and?

Jess:

three children, three adult size children, like they're like 16. The two girls are in college but they're all physically adults right, exactly?

Niq:

and they're all not girls. Like there's a guy, a 16 year old boy and with your daughter's teenage like, like it doesn't make sense. There should have been, at the very least, one more bedroom, at the very least.

Jess:

I could not understand that you could have put them on the couch but, like you, definitely should have had them girls in a separate bedroom. The daughter alludes to this, and I've seen this with other people on the spectrum, so I don't know if he's had this issue in the past or if she's just being mean because she's just so freaking mean, but she just alludes to him being inappropriate in front of the friend, which sometimes you don't have. You know, you don't know the social rights or wrongs, like you will be, but to me that was like the most genuine concern. She just didn't know how to express it or the mom just wasn't willing to receive it, but I'm like, no, you absolutely should not expect the three of them to be in the same place overnight. The girl needs to change, she, you know, and that's not his sister right, I, yeah, I could not understand that.

Niq:

I think that that was the weirdest thing ever because once again, this woman is a ceo, so at the even if they they did not have a suite with two bedrooms, she could have gotten the girls a separate room, their college age, they can be in their own room.

Niq:

Yeah I could not. I could not for the life of me figure it out. I'm like her mom is so type A, like her mom. You know what I'm saying. Like I don't understand how this is like the living situation we ended up with. Yeah, it did not make sense.

Jess:

He didn't have to like sleep in the kitchen with no air conditioning, oh my god, and that's because his sister put him in the kitchen.

Niq:

The mom was like they can all sleep out here. Why are you a CEO and you got your son sleeping on a roll away? Mmhmm, and he's like not a child, he's 16.

Jess:

He's a big 16, like he's.

Niq:

He's like the size of a grown man right, if it was so cool, why didn't you put the girls in the bedroom and you and your husband slept on the couch with your son? You know what I'm saying. If that's, if that's, if that was a cool living situation.

Jess:

Yeah, that never made sense to me, like I definitely feel like the girls should have had their own room and then the daughter complained and the mom just completely discounted her and that's, and I'm like, and again, the daughter is such a bitch.

Jess:

It's hard, you know. I mean you kind of understand sometimes, but in that moment that was the one time where I was like, no, her complaint is valid. Her complaint is valid. Like no, she's trying to protect her friend and I'm like it just wouldn't, it wouldn't be a far fetch to me that this, that this boy could be inappropriate, right and and and like everybody alluded to the fact that he had a, he had a particular addiction to his phone, kind of addiction with, like, the materials that he watched on his phone. And so I'm like, and again, you don't want the girl feeling uncomfortable right along with you.

Niq:

So I personally was like really excited when, like the girl feeling uncomfortable that she brought along with you. So I personally was like really excited when, like Quinn like this son's name is Quinn when he met like the Hawaiian guys who were doing like the paddling and he started like doing it with them and I was really my controversial take is his parents should have allowed him to stay.

Jess:

Oh girl that's real controversial. He's 16.

Niq:

Okay, so hear me out. Okay, he is 16, but you can tell that they do not give their kids a lot of parental guidance and that they pretty much do what they want when they want to do it. They are financially stable enough that they can make sure he has a safe place to stay and that he has all his financial needs met. But even if he I don't know what time of year it was let's assume that he would miss the rest of the school year.

Niq:

They have enough money that they can either hire him a tutor while he's there in Hawaii or send him to some sort of private program to make it up. But what he would get from spending time with those guys are things that he needs. He needs male interaction. He needs socialization. He needs to learn teamwork. He needs to learn that he's not the most important thing in the world teamwork.

Jess:

He needs to learn that he's not the most important thing in the world and to interact with non-white people, because your family has some really weird racial stuff.

Niq:

Right, but also like it would help him with his college application. So many like if you know, he probably has good grades and he went to a good school and he probably has good SAT scores. Honestly, these days, that's not enough to get you into a good school. He probably has good SAT scores. Honestly, these days, that's not enough to get you into a good school. You need something different. So imagine if he could write an essay about how he went to Hawaii and learned this skill and was able to help this team accomplish this thing. It actually would make him stand out.

Jess:

He still needs a parent. He's 16. He does not have any social skills. There's clearly some kind of issue there that they have not confronted. So, like I will say that if the dad was willing to stay with him in Hawaii, but if you let him stay in Hawaii by himself, he's going to become somebody else's problem, like as in, somebody else is now going to have to take care of your son because there's just certain things that he's not able to do for himself. They can hire somebody, but what is the dad doing? He's got a real job.

Niq:

I don't know, I don't know. I wouldn't have an issue with the dad staying, but I really hated how they dismissed it completely out of hand and did not even try to figure out a way for it to happen, and they were not recognizing the benefits. Yeah, it's like they don't. They don't care about their kids for real. They care, like they're willing to like, I don't know, they're willing to give them material things. They are, but like they're not meeting their kids' emotional or developmental needs. And you can see it because the daughter is the spawn of Satan and the son is barely functional as a human.

Jess:

The daughter is definitely Satan's favorite daughter, but I don't think To some degree I agree Because I agree, but I just feel like most parents. When a teenager asks them I'm just going to stay here and live on my own, they would have dismissed it. But I do agree if they had known what it was doing for as the person who tried to leave the house since they were eight, there's so many different proposals I put in front of my parents of how I was going to live on my own that they dismissed Because I'm like I was a kid.

Niq:

Yes, but you also went from a super rich family. The super rich. They don't do things the way that we do, the way normal people do.

Jess:

They don't.

Niq:

They can very easily have their own place and be living their own separate life.

Jess:

I guess. So, mind you, I get the benefits of him staying there and I was sad for him because I was like, dang, that really would be good for you, but it would require a sacrifice. I feel like the dad should have stayed and lived there in Hawaii. That would give him and the wife some separation, that they need to get some perspective, and that would have been to me. That would have been my best case scenario, but like leaving him to be there on his own so he can now be the responsibility of the people of Hawaii.

Niq:

No, I just I think my issue is that they did not even consider it. They dismissed it out of hand, the same way that they dismissed the daughter out of hand when she was complaining about having to share a room with her brother and it not being comfortable.

Niq:

Like when, when these kids are expressing like a need, from their parents they just dismiss it out of hand without even giving it a second thought. And compound that with how often they're probably doing it about other things, and it's like, yes, your kids are ungrateful for the life that you're providing them, but you're also ignoring them when they want something that's not financial.

Jess:

Yeah, and needs are not just financial yeah. Okay.

Niq:

Yeah, I'm like, oh no, he needs to stay. Make it happen. When you have resources, you can make anything happen. There are things like, oh well, you can make anything happen. There are things like, oh well, you can't live there by yourself. Okay well, find someone who can be a house manager for him and make sure that he can keep up.

Jess:

That is your child. You stay there? No, because all I see is him becoming a burden to somebody else.

Niq:

If they're paying a house manager, that would probably be a good job for someone.

Jess:

That boy needs so much. He needs so much. I don't want that to become somebody else's responsibility.

Niq:

I don't know how much he really needs. This is the thing. It's very obvious that he has issues. Well, this is the thing I like. It's very obvious that he has issues right, but I think that his, like his issues are lack of socialization. I'm like I think that he would be getting that socialization, like he would be learning how to put himself, like not first. He would be learning teamwork like. I feel like this could help a lot of his issues.

Jess:

He is likely undiagnosed on the spectrum. He needs a diagnosis. He possibly has a porn addiction. He does need socialization. But like, so like he would get the socialization and the team building a lot of good things from from that, from that group, and I get that. But there's other stuff that those parents need to be attended to that they don't need to partner for someone else, at least be monitoring it. You know what I mean. At least like, okay, I'm going to stay here with him, I'm going to put him in therapy or some kind of specialized treatment for whatever it is that he does, whatever diagnosis he does have, and he can do this paddle boat thing.

Niq:

Well, I just feel like when they go home, they're not going to be doing any of those things they're just like. That's still their responsibility yeah, I don't know, I, I I feel I felt really bad for him because I'm like oh, you actually found something that's not online like is meeting like some of your needs and could possibly help you develop into a more functional human being, and your parents are like I could care less about that.

Jess:

And a community that's accepting, because that's the other thing when you don't fit in. And I can see people in his world back home not even trying. But you had folks there that were willing to try with him and put in some effort. Like, those guys were very accepting and very open and willing to try with him and I do think that's important too because, like, some environments just aren't good for you. You know, and he's at our super rich elite private school yeah, them kids are not trying, they're just writing. Writing you up is weird and moving on with their life.

Niq:

Right. So yeah, I really hate that. They just did that, you know yeah.

Jess:

I was going to say, I do want to talk about the friendship between the two girls on the trip.

Niq:

Yes.

Jess:

Yeah, so that was interesting, their relationship. I'm like I do not understand why the two of your friends and here's the thing okay, so what are their names? Because I know you got the names what are the two?

Niq:

names Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name is Paula, paula, okay. So I do not understand why the two of your friends, I don't think two names.

Jess:

So Olivia is the daughter and her friend's name is Paula, paula, okay. So I do not understand why the two of you are friends. I don't think you actually either one of you likes the other one, but you all are very attached to each other. Olivia is incredibly jealous of Paula and I don't know what Paula is getting out of the friendship with Olivia, other than stuff like you know, being able to come. But I'm like, but if you're in her orbit, you may not have as much money as her, but I feel like you still would have some money, like, so why do you need to attach yourself to her? But yeah, they are frenemies, they are not actual friends. And Olivia Paula says that she's like she's OK with me as long as I don't advance past her or have more than she does, and as soon as she does, she tries to tear that down, and you see her do that actively.

Niq:

I honestly think that they are friends because they are both mean girls and they both have that same jaded view of the world that capitalism is bad. But I don't know what to do next. I don't really have real views, but I like to you know. They have that same attitude and they obviously both love drugs and they're frenemies. And there are certain sets of girls who that's all that they know of friendship is that frenemy relationship hmm, yeah my question go ahead is Olivia in love with Paula?

Jess:

yes, yes, I got that vibe too. Olivia is in love with Paula. She's very possessive of Paula. Yes, yes, I got that vibe too. Olivia is in love with Paula. She's very possessive of Paula. Yeah, to a point where it's uncomfortable. It is Like the ASMR. What was the?

Niq:

ASMR when they were doing the drugs and she was like you want to do some ASMR, she's like lighting the drugs and she was like you want to do some ASMR and she's like lighting the lighter and rubbing her hair. It was really intimate. And I know girl friendships are different. Girl friendships they do have a level of intimacy where it can still be platonic. But that was still a little weird. I think it was because they were also like doing drugs.

Jess:

It just felt way intimate, no, the in the level of possessiveness. And I try to, I try to remember because we've talked about this before how, like when you're that, when you're that age well, like you're coming out of high school but you're not fully adult, you're kind of in college, your friendships are everything and they're, and they are kind of um I don't know the right word was like, like it meshed like you're too involved in each other's lives. But it feels even beyond that it does, it does, it does seem like she's in love with paula, so she tries to sabotage any relationship that she has with a man. And I'm like it was. I'm like from the, from the point where you realize that paula doesn't want to tell her that she met a guy that she likes, because I'm like that would be the whole topic of discussion. If we were on a resort together at that age and we were single and one of us met a guy that we liked, oh my God, we would be talking about that the whole time.

Niq:

Absolutely, it would be a huge deal.

Jess:

Okay, and then we would encourage each other Because we got the sense. Okay, and then we would encourage each other. But the fact that she had to keep it private and that she had to hide it and sneak off, like I get you sneaking off from the parents, but like we would have snuck off from the parents and covered for each other, like she has to sneak off from her friend, that was weird.

Niq:

Olivia was also interrogating her about the guy like it wasn't like, ooh, he's so cute like it was like, are you?

Niq:

looking at him and like do you like him? You know it was it is. I think I'm quite sure that Paula's family is not as like advanced as economically advanced, because you can tell one, I don't know what, what Paula's ethnicity is ambiguous, very ambiguous, like she could easily be like. She looks like she could be like indigenous, but she looks like she could be like indigenous, but she looks like she could also be like Latina, although those are not mutually exclusive, depending on like, how you're. But then she could also like she could also be Asian.

Jess:

I don't know she could be a lot of different things, but she clearly has some tint to her skin and yeah, you can tell that she, at the very least, has experienced some levels of oppression.

Niq:

Yeah, based on her like identity, you can, you can tell that.

Niq:

So, although she is friends with olivia and she does have some of those mean girl like tendencies, you can, you like you could, tell her frustration at being around these people who are very rich, very privileged and don't really understand what real life is like yeah and so I think that she does enjoy her, her friendship with, with olivia, because it does give her access to some things that she doesn't have access to, but it also allows her to know and understand her enemy okay, but I don't think that, like, paula is like a great person. She's not a terrible person, but she is more flawed than she's willing to give herself credit. Yeah, because you are still like, in a lot of ways, aligning yourself with these systems that you say that you don't believe in yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Jess:

even even spending time with this family, who has made multiple racially and I assume like this is not the first time you spent time with her family, because they seem very familiar. So they make comments like this in front of you all the time, and then even her and the dad get into it at dinner, kind of like the dad is being really appropriate and saying some really racially insensitive stuff directly to her, almost like you know, demanding that she explain, or something like that. So and you still can choose to be around these people.

Niq:

Right Now I'm going to tell you where Paula really really goes off the deep end for me when she formulates this plan with the guy that she met at the resort and convinces him to rob the rich family so that he can use the money you know for to help out his community. Yeah, this is crazy, that's one I'm gonna say one. It's crazy because, like, even though these are not the greatest people, they still took you in and took you on a trip with them. Like that. It's crazy because, like, even though these are not the greatest people, they still took you in and took you on a trip with them. Like that, that's crazy.

Jess:

Second of all, like you did not think of the consequences if things go bad at all, and that's where I feel like her privilege is showing that she's still growing up somewhat affluent and in a different world, that she does not even consider the consequences for him. Like you know what I mean, because if you really thought through this, you would have stole it and then just gave it to him Because there would not have been consequences for you.

Niq:

Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Jess:

You craft this ridiculous plan where he goes into the room risking his job, his livelihood, everything his freedom.

Niq:

He did not want to do it. He's like I'm not a thief, that's not how I operate. Like she really browbeat this boy into committing, like a robbery that he did not want to do, for money he did not ask for. Yeah, he did not ask her for anything. He didn't ask her for any money, no, he was just getting to know her, letting her get to know him, and she comes up with this asinine plan which, of course, falls apart and he ends up in jail and she ends up crying because she feels guilty right, but going back to your previous life, right.

Niq:

And who's there to pick up the pieces, but Olivia trying to get in.

Jess:

Girl and I'm like run Paula, run, Run from this family.

Niq:

I honestly was hoping that Kai was going to snitch on her and say that she was involved, because she deserved to face the consequences, because she created that situation, that dumb plan.

Niq:

And I hate that he is the one that felt the consequences of her crazy idea Me too. So the family at the end of the trip, of her crazy idea me too. So I just like. So the at the end of the trip because Kai, the wife ends up coming back to the hotel early and is there when Kai is trying to rob the safe. The husband gets to be a hero and he gets to come in and swoop in and save his wife. Like their relationship gets a bit of a boost. The kids, like because their parents were in danger, soften towards the parents a little bit. So, like they, I guess they leave in a slightly better position than they were.

Jess:

But it's so superficial I just don't think it'll last and it's not going to last, and again all these people are affected, and then they're better off even slightly, without having made any real change well, right, and there's a worker that is hurt by it, like if you look, there's a correlation.

Niq:

Belinda got hurt by Tanya and Kai got hurt by being associated with Paula, who's, at this point, a moss blocker because she's on the trip with them, and it's like once again boundaries get pushed. Paula, who's, at this point, a moss blocker because she's on the trip with them, and it's like you, like the once again boundaries get pushed and they are taking, even though they come in, having everything they're taking from the lesser people, and Kai ends up losing his freedom and I just hate that for him because he's a really nice guy, really sweet guy and did not want to do it.

Jess:

I reiterate did not want to do it. I'm so did not want to do it. I'm like I'm so wishing he would have said no, but she really. I look like she pulled him in with this idea that he could reconnect to his community, because he was already disconnected because he worked on the resort, and I think that's what really got him. But I'm like if you just took a step back and listen, like you ought to know this is not going to work out well for you and she's going to be fine.

Niq:

Right, right. So do you have any other parts of their story that you want to discuss?

Jess:

I think we did pretty good.

Niq:

I think we covered. I think we really did a good job. We really covered all of them, okay, so thank you guys so much for joining us for this.