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The Vicar's Dilemma: When Good People Make Terrible Choices

• Niq & Jess • Episode 24

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What happens when good people make catastrophic decisions? "Inside Man" pulls us into a riveting moral nightmare where one small choice spirals into unthinkable consequences.

David Tennant delivers a haunting performance as a well-respected vicar whose desire to protect his family leads him down a dark path. When he agrees to keep a parishioner's flash drive containing disturbing material, he unwittingly sets off a chain reaction that will destroy multiple lives. After Janice, his son's mathematics tutor played with chilling precision, accidentally discovers the contents, the vicar makes the fateful decision to imprison her rather than face the consequences.

The brilliance of this limited series lies in its unflinching examination of the gap between who we believe ourselves to be and who we actually are when pushed to our limits. As the vicar and his wife descend from respected community figures to kidnappers contemplating murder, we're forced to ask ourselves uncomfortable questions. Would we make better choices? How quickly would our moral boundaries dissolve if our family's reputation was at stake?

Stanley Tucci's character Jefferson, a death row inmate with an uncanny understanding of human nature, provides the philosophical framework for the series. "Everyone is a murderer," he claims. "They just haven't met the right person yet." Through his interactions with a journalist determined to prove him wrong, we explore how thin the veneer of civilization truly is.

The series culminates with a shocking twist that suggests new moral dilemmas on the horizon, leaving viewers to grapple with what they've witnessed. Have you ever wondered how far you'd go to protect someone you love? Watch "Inside Man" and confront the terrifying reality that you might not know yourself as well as you think.

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, welcome back to our episode. As we continue discussing Inside man, I'm your host, Niq, and I'm Jess, and so last time we kind of had a discussion about like the theoretical, you know, questions that the show was answering. So I really kind of just want to talk about it from like a plot perspective. Okay, to talk about it from like a plot perspective okay, so we have beth, who is a journalist, and we she meets janice on a train. Beth is like being intimidated by this guy on the train, and the train is literally full of people who are seeing this happen and none of them are doing anything. One woman tries to step in and then the guy starts like intimidating her and what like people are just looking and not saying anything and it is so like very scary yeah it was, it was it I was.

Niq:

I was so uncomfortable because I'm like man, this is so true, even though there's like 50 people on this train that could very easily outnumber this one person. Who's?

Jess:

causing the problem.

Niq:

no one wants to be brave enough to step in. But then they'll all look with like, oh, I feel bad for you, kind of Right.

Jess:

You know what I thought was odd about that? Yes to everything that you said and it was crazy, but like I could not understand, like, so the first woman who tries to intervene, who snaps a picture of him and then he starts intimidating her and he says give me your phone. Why does she do it?

Niq:

what's the reason that she I think she's scared that he's going to get violent with her. He very much seems like the kind of person that would hit a woman. He.

Jess:

He does, but at the same time also you don't.

Niq:

Remember they're in the UK. And he says something about taking a picture of me without my permission is assault or something like that.

Jess:

He does, but he's actively assaulting another person.

Niq:

He is, but he's a white male and that woman whose phone he had was like an Asian woman. I don't know enough about their laws I don't but I know that she probably felt uncomfortable.

Jess:

I know she felt uncomfortable and I know she did it because she was scared. So I'm like, I don't I say why, but I'm like, but I just can't imagine responding that way, because I'm like what are you gonna make me? You don't? You don't mean you gonna make me.

Niq:

I also can't imagine. But we are a little different. You know, we're not going to like, you're not going to sit here and like and even like the way he was intimidating her, like how she didn't move, how she just like kind of, yeah, all of that. Beth is sitting down on the train. He walks over and he puts her crotch in his face, his crotch in her face. He puts his crotch in her face. I would have punched him in his dick well, I'm like, at the very least move.

Jess:

You know what I mean like and do. I think he would have chased her or followed her, yes, but like she doesn't even move and I mean I guess she could have been in freeze or whatever. But I'm like you don't. Nobody, until Janice intervenes, really tries to, Because even with the woman, the lady who takes the picture of him initially, yes, he does seem like he has a potential for violence. You are also a lot more distant from him. You know what I mean he would have had. I'm just like, I don't know. But this is why Americans got in trouble in Paris because we kept getting pickpocketed or tried to get pickpocketed in Paris and we was not going for it, we were fighting. The pickpockets to the police had to get to the point where they had to say Americans, you heard in the pickpockets, Becca. Maybe that is a cultural difference.

Niq:

They're also on the train, so they're like in this enclosed space. And then I think, because people don't carry guns in the UK, they're more likely to carry knives, but I, just when he put his crotch in my face, that would have been it. For me, that would have been it.

Niq:

At that point I'm like, at that point I would have tried to move and if you made it difficult for me to move, then we're fighting and I wouldn't have waited that long because I feel like if she like I feel like she her best advantage would have been to hurt him and open up for him was when he had his crotch to like. Hit him in it and don't stop hitting him until the train stops or opens and then throw his ass off of the thing.

Jess:

um, the same thing with, like the thing the lady from, and I guess you're in fear so maybe you respond differently, but I'm like she had some distance, the lady who took the picture. So I'm like, while I get you being scared, you would have had to come over here and get my up and phone. I'm not getting up and walking to you to give you my phone.

Niq:

You would have had to come, get it, come get my phone, you would have had to come get it. Come get this phone. England has a. Their society is like that fake politeness. I think so. I think maybe that's just like a difference between America.

Jess:

Because the pickpocket thing I'm talking about was like during the Olympics.

Niq:

Oh, I remember People had like Americans.

Jess:

they kept like oh, I remember people had like Americans, they had like the electric the stun wallets, they were fighting the pickpockets and I'm like, maybe that's just us, maybe that's how we just different. But I'm like when I tell you, I'm like because all you've already made it clear that there's going to be a confrontation, so we're going to confrontate. At this point you've made it clear we're not getting out of this without a confrontation, so we're going to confrontate.

Niq:

I don't know, did I disappear? No, I can see you. Oh, okay, my computer's being weird. So that's where Beth and Janice meet each other and, like, janice intervenes and kind of puts an end to the situation, um, and beth is very, very thankful and she's trying to form a friendship with janice because she's like you know what, like I think that you're so inspiring and I'm a journalist and I would love to do a story about you, and janice is trying to do everything possible to not have a story written about her and to also, like, not become her friend, which we talked about, how she could possibly be on the autism spectrum, um, but also she could just have some secrets that we don't know about she could have secrets, but I she could have, and the way the show ended alludes to.

Jess:

I don't know if she has secrets already or she about to have some secrets, but I think more than that. I do think she just does not value human connection in that way. Whether or not she's on the spectrum or not, she doesn't want the connection, right, you know, she's like seems to be okay with minimal connection with her sister and that's all she wants. She wants to talk to her sister at 9 o'clock on Sundays, right, and outside of that she's going to do her tutoring and she wants to be alone.

Niq:

And so then we're introduced to the vicar, who is a priest. I don't know the difference. Maybe it's just like what denomination he is, because he's not Catholic because he can get married.

Niq:

Right, he's married and they have a teenage son and he seems like on his face to be like a very nice person, very caring. You could tell he really enjoys his job, he likes what he does. And so when you meet the vicar, like one of his parishioners is coming in and he's asking the vicar to do a favor and you can tell immediately that this parishioner has something wrong with him. He very much screams abnormal, maybe less mental capacity, socially awkward.

Jess:

He's very socially awkward and something feels very off about this person.

Niq:

Yes, and so what the parishioner asked him is he asked him to hold his thumb drive. He basically tells the vicar like hey, my mom is going through my stuff and she's going to find my thumb drive and it has my adult material on it and I don't want to get in trouble. And the vicar agrees to hold his adult material. First problem I have I would have taken it from him and immediately put it in the trash, because what was the vicar's plan? To give him back his porn. I don't know, I don't know what the what him back his porn.

Jess:

I don't know. I don't know what the plan was. I don't know that he had a plan other than just like he was just gonna let him sit there in the office. He also has no clue.

Niq:

I don't think at that point he knows what kind he doesn't know, he finds out what's on at the same time that Janice finds he just thinks that it's pornography. Because this man is an adult, a well-on adult like. He's a fully grown adult. He still lives with his mother and his mother like doesn't want him to have that material in the house. And you understand why later on. Because when he talks to, when, like the mom is confronting him, she's like I know, you have your porn, where is it? Where is it? And she's like I know what kind of stuff you're into. The mom knows who and what her son is, you know.

Niq:

But the vicar like agrees, which I thought was a weird thing. But I'm like okay, even if I agreed to take your porn stash so your mom doesn't find it, I'm immediately throwing that thumb drive away because you, I agree with your mom that you don't. If you have a thumb drive full of porn, that's crazy. Like you need to do something else with your life and with your time. I'm not saying that anyone who views porn is a, it's an issue, it's a problem. But if you have to keep you, if you got your thumb, your your porn on a thumb drive, that for whatever reason, there's a problem.

Niq:

yeah, that's a step too far for me, so I would have immediately destroyed it. He does not destroy it. He, oddly enough, takes it home with him. I also didn't understand that.

Jess:

So I was like trying to figure out, was it an accident? Like was he just trying to grab a thumb drive.

Niq:

So I don't think he was intentionally bringing the, the flash drive home. I think it was just in his hand maybe when he left, because when he got to his house he just kind of tossed it into like the tea basket. Okay, so he tosses it in there. Um, and janice comes over to tutor the son, who doesn't even want to be tutored that day. He wants to go to like a music concert, and so janice needs a thumb drive to give him like some documents, like some worksheets or something. And so he gets the thumb drive and the dad is like, hey, that, don't, look at the stuff on there.

Niq:

Mistake number two you should have thrown the thumb drive away. But second of all, why would you let your son use that thumb drive? It's not even your thumb drive and you know, at the very least it has some form of pornography. Even if it was regular pornography, why would you give that to his tutor to use? Does he hand it to her? Does she grab it? The son grabs it and gives it to janice, and then when he comes in he's like, oh, the son is making jokes and he, because he likes to make his dad uncomfortable, and he's telling janet that it's his thumb drive and that he knows it's full of porn and that it's his porn. Because he doesn't? I think part of it is because he thinks the porn on the thumb drive is his dad's and he doesn't want janet he's trying to cover for his dad.

Niq:

Yeah, right, but he also likes. He like is excited and titillated and about making his dad uncomfortable, yeah. And so at that moment the dad could have very easily said, actually, like, that's one of my parishioners thumb drives, let's not use that. Or please don't open in, like, when the son the first time the son says it's my thumb drive, he could have said what, like, you think you're so funny? That's not your thumb drive, you know. But he's already told his son that it's his thumb drive and he should have never done that. The unnecessary lying irks me true, true.

Jess:

And again your parishioner asks you that, because you're a priest, lead him like I mean not that it should be at the church, but like why did you, yeah, why did you bring it home? Why did you?

Niq:

never. But at the very least, like when your son picked it up, instead of saying, oh, this is mine and it has my private files on it, don't look at anything, he should have said, hey, that's my parishioners like thumb drive and it's, it's got like their stuff on, so don't look at anything. You know what I'm saying? Like like why the lie? I don't like that. That. That irritated me. So Janice, even though she was told not to like open any files, she ends up opening files. Now here's the thing I don't think Janice is super technology inclined, like just the way that she, like she doesn't even Janice is super technology inclined, like just the way that she doesn't even have social media on her phone. I don't think she's super technology inclined. But I also don't think that she was snooping. Like when there's thumbnail pictures, like you know, like when you open a thumb drive, it's very easy just to see stuff.

Jess:

Right or click on something accidentally you know what I mean. Like she's trying to put something on there, but she clicks something that's already on. I can see that too, because she's not very tech savvy, right.

Niq:

So when she, so she's using the thumb drive which is she like the son has just told her hey, you know, it's mine and it's full of porn, you know, like, and he's being very cheeky about it. And when janice opens it up, she has the shock of her life because there's c-sam material on the uh, on the thumb drive. And at that moment the is when the vicar also realizes what's on there. And then the vicar like so she's like janice is like freaking out, and she's like, oh my god, oh my god, you know. And she's trying there.

Niq:

And then the vicar like so she's like janice is like freaking out. And she's like, oh my god, oh my god, you know. And she's trying to explain to the vicar hey, like this is serious stuff on here. And the vicar immediately it's like oh, it's not his, oh, it's not his. And she's like, hey, you know, we need to figure out what's going on, we need to call the police. And he is just so the vicar is just he freaks out, he does freak out. Yeah, because here's the thing immediately they should have just called the police. Yeah, they should have called. And the reason why is it called the police? Right then, and there with her there, that is a good point.

Jess:

Yes, you should call the police because, like, once you realize what's on there, you need to call the police on that, on your parishioner absolutely like.

Niq:

I don't. Once again, see, I don't know. I don't know what the rules are when you're a vicar, because there are some denominations that are not catholic but still have some of the catholic rules about confidentiality and all of that stuff. But he, this was not a confession. You know what I'm saying? This was not a. Even if you, it wasn't a confession. So I don't understand why he felt the need to be like so secretive and to protect this person first of all. But second of all, if you call the police immediately with Janice there, call the police and explain to the police what's going on. But they have technology to trace things like where stuff originated, from what computer it came like. It would be to me, I feel like, very easy to disprove that it was like the Suns, because if you go through the Suns computer, there's no material like that on there. You go through the Vickers computer, even the one at the church, there's no material on there like since she opened it on the Vickers computer or on her own laptop.

Niq:

I don't know. Everything has time stamps. You know what I mean. So if you open something like they can do so much tracing with computers and files and stuff, I just feel like he lost his mind and instead of just calling the police at that moment I would have called the police with janice there. I need you to come right now and, like janice could have said whatever she wanted to say oh, it's the sons, it's the sons, it's the sons, the vicar, he's a vicar. He could have easily said it's not my sons, it was never my sons. I got it from a parishioner today. She got the wrong idea do whatever trace you need to do on it. Look at all of the computers in our home, look at the computers in my office. You know what I'm saying. Like he could and instead he freaks out. He freaks out and like he immediately, like janice, is uncomfortable because he's not trying to call the police, he's trying to, and what, and it very much. It looks like he's just trying to protect his son and cover for his son.

Jess:

It does. It also looks like he's trying to intimidate Janet.

Niq:

Janice, it very much so. And then in the midst of him, like trying to calm her down and stuff, he accidentally injures her and it is. And it is once again as the audience you see that it's an accident. But if you're Janice, I understand how you feel you should have let her go. Even if she would have taken the thumb drive with her, I would have been ready for when the police got there to explain what was going on and be ready to. I will submit to whatever and they're like oh you know, it's even just the accusation, even just the accusation. If the police conduct an investigation and they find out who it actually belongs to and that person gets arrested, it.

Jess:

You know what I'm saying, like it well, okay, and here's the thing janice like, because we talked about janice and her morals and values in the last episode and they and not that they know janice well enough to know this. But the crazy thing is, janice is a reasonable enough person for to say can you just not say anything until after the investigation, like you couldn't do that with everybody but one. She doesn't have any contact with the outside world really and she is reasonable enough to where you could have reasoned with her like we are going to call the police, but will you just, you know, for our son's sake, let them conduct this investigation. He's a minor and don't say anything until then, so that we don't ruin his reputation before the police figure out what happened Exactly.

Jess:

She really is somebody you could reason with, but you should let her out of that house.

Niq:

Absolutely, absolutely. And so he injures her, he's blocking her from leaving and ultimately he ends up putting her in the basement. At the point that he decides to put her in the basement, it's over. There's no way out for him. I feel like, at this point, there's no to me, there's no way out for him. I feel like at this point, there's no to me, there's no way out. But he has this insane idea that he can somehow fix the situation.

Jess:

So the everybody's reputations, which is so important to him right, which I get. I get it because that accusation is not like a one that you, that anybody would take lightly, but also like you went from a possible, really bad accusation to now you are imprisoning, kidnapping someone and potentially wrestling with whether or not you need to murder them right, like you had a rock and you dropped the rock and you pick up a cinder block.

Niq:

It's like you had a big enough problem. You think you're going to just pick up an even bigger burden. It doesn't make sense. This is what I found interesting. So the vicar decides that he's going to record the parishioner admitting that the material is his and for. As mentally challenged as that parishioner seems to be, he was smart enough not to admit to it.

Jess:

Mm-hmm, that was interesting to me too. I'm like, oh, he's not going to say it. You think you're going to get him to say it. He's not going to say it.

Niq:

No, but also, once again, this is why the Vickers plan was bad. You are not an investigator, you're not. You're not a professional, you're not used to dealing with criminals and dealing with these people. Why not have the police, who have experience dealing with these kinds of criminals, conduct the investigation?

Jess:

Yeah, very true, very true.

Niq:

That way it's within the confines of the law. But at this point he already has a Janet in the basement.

Jess:

That's true, he already has Janet in the basement. And again, like when you're in those kind of positions, you also got to weigh things like yeah, I get, you're a vicar and that people come to you and confess their sins and you're supposed to have confidentiality, but there are limits to that and that is the thing that you're dealing with is the ultimate limit to that. So because, like Edgar, who is the actual guy, who the flash drive belongs to, Edgar needs to go to jail.

Niq:

But also Edgar did not confess to him.

Jess:

He didn't confess to him.

Niq:

Again to your point about the police needed to be involved regardless absolutely I don't know at what point he was planning to get the police involved to me.

Jess:

I don't think he ever was planning on getting the police involved. He has this weird. He's not just protecting his son, he's also protecting Edgar, and that's the part that doesn't make sense. I didn't understand that. There's no amount. Of you know I'm the vicar, I'm supposed to be this person or whatever, to explain why you're protecting Edgar at this point. This is not something that you need to protect him from.

Niq:

No, I mean, he could have even went to Edgar's mother and it's like like you have an issue with his stuff.

Jess:

What do you know and like, let's go to the police together, cause that shit also should have been with, like I'm sorry, I know that's your son, but you know who your son is.

Niq:

Right. So the vicar is like pressing so hard on Edgar. He takes him, he meets him at the bar, he's trying to get him to confess. That doesn't work. He puts him in his car, he takes him to the church. He's trying to do everything he can to emotionally manipulate this man into confessing.

Jess:

He is no.

Niq:

Janice. He is no Janice, he is not. What does happen, though, is Edgar ends up committing suicide In his suicide note what does it?

Jess:

He says don't believe the vicar, he's not. You know, he's covering for someone else, he's protecting someone else, but he doesn't say who he's protecting. So it just it seems like yeah.

Niq:

So it really makes once again makes it seem like the vicar is covering for his son.

Jess:

It makes the son look guiltier.

Niq:

And so, once again, the vicar is not a professional. So you tried to conduct your own investigation and this man that you say that you were trying to protect, he ends up dead from suicide because of you trying to emotionally manipulate him, when you could have just went into the police and he would have been in police custody and then the community would have protected, because you have some level of responsibility to your own community and you know at this point, you know who and what Edgar is.

Jess:

Again, I don't understand that need to protect him, considering what he's done Right.

Niq:

So now the police are kind of tipped off that something weird is going on, but I feel like they kind of let it go yeah huh, oh yeah, you never see the police again.

Jess:

You don't see the police again, you don't they? Um, they question the vicar, they don't question the wife, they just question the vicar, and then you never see or hear from them again no, and I don't.

Niq:

Maybe they were like, maybe doing like background interviews, maybe they were going to circle back to him, but that note would have been disturbing enough to me that I would have been asking questions. Also, that was the worst written suicide note ever, like I'm like I feel like he was trying to exonerate the vicar because the vicar basically did he tell Edgar that he's just going to like he's going to admit to it and say that it was his to protect him, because he's trying to protect the vicar.

Niq:

Then he decides that he's going to go to the police and he's going to confess and say that material was his to try to protect Edgar and to try to protect his son, which is also crazy. Why would you try to protect a criminal and someone who could prey on the children in your community? Does not make sense that's.

Jess:

I never get his desire to protect edgar like I'm yeah, I don't get it.

Niq:

I don't get it either. I, I don't get it either. It doesn't make sense to me either. And so edgar is trying to save him by doing the worst suicide note ever. That only just makes things more confused, so much worse.

Niq:

And so like every decision the vicar is making is just making things worse, like the while the police are there, like they have janice in the basement and like the wife is down there trying to keep her calm and like janice is trying to manipulate the wife and janice is pretending like she's, like they're hitting her and blaming the each other to try, try to put them against each other. To a certain extent it works. The husband does not trust the wife, the wife does not trust the husband because she can very clearly see that Janice is manipulating him and they're no closer to a real solution. And all of this at this point they're hiding from the son, who is also not crazy and thinks something's going on, because he's like, oh, what happened with Janice? Because he ends up leaving and going to the music festival and so he is oblivious that Janice thinks that sea sand material was his.

Niq:

He doesn't know that it exists, yet but what he knows is that he's still seeing Janice's stuff here. He's like why is her stuff here? And then he's calling Janice, like hey, you left your stuff. He's like, oh, is Janice upset? And he's putting two and two together like something is weird. Something's like oh, is Janice upset? And like he's putting like two and two together Like something is weird, something's off, yeah, you know. And he eventually finds Janice in the basement.

Niq:

So at this point the wife is like, hey, we got a killer, we got a killer, we got a killer. Maybe we shouldn't kill her, you know, whatever. And so once, once again, the vicar who wants to be the good guy, wants to be the hero, he like sends his wife off and he decides that he's going to kill janice because it's the only way to protect his son, um and? But he decides to do use carbon monoxide, which I think is the worst way to kill someone, like because you're like trying to catch her off guard. So she doesn't know and she won't feel like you're a terrible person. But you, it doesn't matter how you kill her, you're a terrible person. Yeah, pretty much. Because why is your son more important than janice?

Niq:

janice didn't do anything, just like your son didn't do anything right right, you know you like you put Edgar before Janice, because in the very beginning the first thing you could have said was it's Edgar's. I can prove it. Let's call the police. I'm so horrified you know what I'm saying Like there's so many, like he puts everybody's life ahead of Janice's, because Janice didn't do anything.

Jess:

Janice, didn't? She showed up for her job, showed up for work, right exactly so he.

Niq:

So what the vicar doesn't know is that his son is in the basement, um, and I don't know how the son oh, the son was already in the basement and I don't know how the sun oh, the sun was already in the basement. When he brings down the heater, but the sun was hiding, because I'm like, how did he bring down the heater and the sun didn't know the sun was hiding. He brings down the heater, he turns it on. The sun. Nor Janice understands that the heater is actually like a murder tool. They just think he's like, understands that the heater is actually like a murder tool. He's like, oh, it's cold down here, let me, let me warm you guys up, let me warm Janice up. He doesn't know the sun's there. So he goes upstairs and then he tapes.

Niq:

You know, he tapes up the door and the son, at this moment, is like questioning Janet and it seems at this point that he's concerned about Janet's safety. And you know, like that's like that's how the conversation starts. He's like, oh, my God, what's going on? Why would they have you down here? And he, like Janet's like, hey, you need to call somebody. You got your phone. And he's like, oh, my battery is about to die and he decides at that moment that he needs to launch an investigation and call his parents and ask them what's going on. Your parents have not told you so far. You see, the woman is in the basement. Let her go.

Jess:

You got a good indication that she's been down there since your tutoring session was supposed to happen.

Niq:

Right. You don't even need to understand or know what is going on, because if they could, if janice did something so terrible that your parents needed to call the police on her, they would have called the police on her. She's. She's in your basement, she's obviously a victim. Let that woman go, and he doesn't. He decides that what he needs to do instead is try to figure out what's going on. Right, and he's down there so long that he's feeling like the effects of the carbon monoxide gets locked in himself, like he's now.

Niq:

You know yeah, once the dad goes upstairs, he locks the door and tapes the door closed, because the dad didn't know he was down there and he called the dad from the basement and is asking him questions and did nothing to mention that. Hey, by the way, I'm in the basement with janice too. I, like he's like dad, tell me the truth. And his dad was like I would never lie to you. And I would be like, well, that's really funny, because I'm down here in the basement with janice Immediately. Immediately, because this is the thing. I don't care why she's down there, I don't have to investigate, I'm about to let her go. At the very least, I'm going to tell you I'm in the basement so I can get out of here, and then I can decide, once I'm no longer in the basement, how I want to proceed If I'm going to call the cops, if I'm going to do whatever, but I'm not going to be stuck in this basement, no.

Niq:

So while the son is in the basement launching his very terrible investigation with 3% battery, the mom ends up going to Janice's house to drop off stuff, and that's when she runs into the journalist. And ultimately, she ends up going to janice's house to, like, drop off stuff and that's when she runs into the journalist and ultimately she ends up dead, which is so interesting because once again that is the vicar's fault that she's dead. So the vicar has now essentially killed edgar and essentially killed his wife, all because he just did not want to do the right thing, which was the hard thing it would. To me it wouldn't have been the hard thing calling the police, but for him it was like the hard thing was calling the police because he felt like his son's reputation would be tarnished. Do you think the son would rather have his mom or his reputation?

Jess:

okay, he would rather have his reputation and his reputation Okay, he would rather have his reputation, and I guess what I'm thinking of this whole time. I'm like, first of all, like, okay, I get it. Your son's reputation will be dragged. His life is going to be forever altered. You also ain't got to stay in this town Once all this stuff gets sorted out. There's other places that need a vicar.

Jess:

You know what that was my thought yeah, your son is going to sustain some damage that he didn't deserve because this is not his stuff. But once all this is gone and the police now say that we're free to roam about the cabin, that's it In the town that you're in, it doesn't matter. There are always going to be questions. There's always going to be questions. There's always going to be people who are going to assume things and make judgments, even when the truth comes out. The best thing is to just pick up the whole family and move.

Niq:

That's very true. I didn't even think about that. Absolutely Move. I understand it's not a big country, but it's big enough. They change accents every five feet.

Jess:

I don't care, like you, know what I mean.

Niq:

I'm moving to Cardiff. Okay, malta, you know what I mean. Moving makes perfect sense it does moving makes perfect sense.

Jess:

I know he's not wrong in the sense that the accusation is going to have an effect on his son, even though he knows it's not true and even though at some point it could be proven false. Right, you know what I mean. And I mean you might get that mom to testify once the vicar, because she does seem to place some value in the vicar. You know what I mean. So maybe she would come through and testify to clear your son's name. Right, knowing what her son is, you would have had to go through it, because what we're not going to do is imprison and kill this woman who showed up to do her job.

Niq:

To do her job. Absolutely, showed up just to do her job.

Jess:

Just to do her job.

Niq:

She's actually really good at her job incredibly good with your difficult behind son yeah, I agree. I just I don't. I would like to believe in a high stress panic situation that I would make better decisions than he made we all do so.

Jess:

Yeah, there's some definite judgment here, but because we all do think, like, even with the situation of us, I still, like you know, I look through it like, oh my God, I would do things so differently. But you know, yeah, there's some level measure of when you're in that stressful situation. Yeah, you don't make the difference. The best decision is because of the stress. I get that. But I do think it's a bit like there's always that underlying question of morality and values going throughout this TV show and the dad places such high values on what everybody else thinks about him and therefore also his son and his son is the most important thing in his life so that trying to protect that reputation becomes paramount to your just basic survival getting out of this situation.

Niq:

Right. So ultimately the journalist is able to get to the house and rescue Janice oh, wait, a minute, we skipped a part. So the son is in the basement with Janice and the carbon monoxide has gotten to his head. But somehow he's been able to piece together everything that's happened and he figures out that Janice thinks that CSAM material was his and he gets upset with Janice. Does he hit her with a shovel? I thought a hammer, hammer. Okay, he hits her with a blunt object and at that moment in my mind I thought Janice was dead, me too. But ultimately, like the dad figures out he's in the basement. Who lets him out the basement? Is it there? Oh no, I think the wife ends up telling him that he's in the basement.

Jess:

She's leaving him messages but he didn't pick it up somehow the dad figures out that he's in the basement.

Niq:

he goes downstairs and the dad also thinks that Janice is dead, and so he's like trying to take credit for it. He basically tells the son to get out To get him.

Niq:

He's trying to take credit for essentially killing Janice. You come to find out that Jefferson, the guy on death row, he does some shenanigans and ends up sending a team over to the Vickers house because he figures out that the that's like that's the only place that Janice could be, because that's like the last place that she was seen and no one's seen her since. So, like the team gets there, like the journalist gets there, and you find out this miraculously, and it is very miraculous because, honestly, like Janice has been through hell, like she has like been through hell, she's like been like starved, kind of beaten, she's been through a lot and then she got hit with the hammer but she is alive and so like. So Janice ends up getting rescued and the vicar ends up in prison, as he should.

Jess:

As he should at this point, but we never figure out what he's charged with. No, and I do want to know in detail what he's charged with.

Niq:

At this point now. Edgar is dead, the vicar's wife is dead and the vicar is in prison. What do you think his son's life is like now?

Jess:

Exactly. Yeah, it's horrible and to some degree, depending on how much came out and that's the other thing that I'm a little bit frustrated that we didn't get to know is whether or not everything. So I know people know that the vicar's in prison, but how much do people know about why he's in prison or what led up to it? Because I'm like that only is your son's life bad because he's one parent that's dead and one parent that's in jail. What do people think of him?

Niq:

I'm going to say, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that that murder trial was probably so big that the vicar either did one of two things he either confessed to everything and he would that would include the c-sam material and just say, oh, it was mine and she was trying, she thought it was his and I. That's why I was like keeping her. He either he either like confessed to everything or he told the freaking truth and like the police would be able to corroborate his story. Yeah, so I do. But I think even the whole situation is salacious enough to still. I feel like that would follow him more than the actual CSAM allegations. You're never gonna live it down.

Jess:

No, that would follow him more than the actual CSAM allegations.

Niq:

You're never going to live it down? No. And then as?

Jess:

a teenager, you don't even have the option to just pick up and move.

Niq:

No, but also I feel like you know when some, anytime someone would probably Google you like that story is going to come up about your dad.

Jess:

Yeah.

Niq:

You know. So at least if they had Googled you and a story would have came up about the accusation, they would have been able to say oh, they conducted an investigation. It turned out it was the creepy parishioner. And so it's like the dad, in trying to run away, honestly ran to everything that he was afraid of.

Jess:

He lost his entire family. The son is still going to have this huge shadow cast on his reputation, and the mom is gone.

Niq:

And the vicar lost his reputation too, and his place in the community and his job, which he loved. He lost everything. Just being so irrational and feeling like you can, like you can solve the problem on your own, which it just doesn't make sense. You didn't create that problem. That problem was bigger than you.

Jess:

There's so many opportunities even when he threatens edgar like he threatens edgar, he was like I'm gonna take. Even when he threatens Edgar like he threatens Edgar and he was like I'm going to take. When he like says that he's going to take responsibility for the flash drive, and then and he's like, so you know, basically kind of like you better never do this again. I'm like do you think that's going to work?

Niq:

No, he's a sicko. That's not going to work.

Jess:

Edgar is still who he is. He's had no. You know what I mean. Like what do you think you did you think that threat is gonna make him stop? You don't think his mom been threatening him his whole life.

Niq:

She knows who he is right, she was like wasn't she like beating on him?

Jess:

beat the crap out of him and that, and he knew that was gonna happen too, so she's been doing that. That did not work right. So what were you really good? I, for the life. He knew that was going to happen too, so she's been doing that. That did not work Right, so what were you really going to? I, for the life of me, will not understand his desire to protect Edgar.

Niq:

I don't understand either, but also like how weird Edgar was, how creepy he was, he should have. I feel like he should have expected that something weird was on there, like even if it wasn't like CSAM material, it could have been like snuff films or dead bodies. I would assume it was going to be weird stuff.

Jess:

If you are a grown man who, yes, you live with your mom, but it can't even be in the house, something up. Maybe he didn't get that far with it, because I guess he caught him on his way home anyway, you know what I mean he was running out of the church or whatever, but like Well, he was in his office when he gave it to him, though. Yeah, but I'm like, but when did he leave? Because he leaves shortly afterwards, I'm guessing.

Niq:

He does, I don't know. I just feel like.

Jess:

You know what I mean. Like you're like okay, yeah, I'll take it. It's time for me to clock out essentially and go home, right.

Niq:

I would have said yes, I will take it as soon when I tell you. As soon as Edgar walked out of that door, I would have put it in the trash because I'm like do you think you're going to come back and say, hey, can I get my porn thumb drive? I know you didn't think that you were about to come back to me. I'm a priest and you're going to ask me for my porn thumb drive back. No, you can't ask me for that. So it should have immediately been destroyed. But also, there was no. There was like okay, if you have this much material on a thumb drive, we need to talk about resources for you.

Jess:

Yeah, that's true, we need to talk about even if you didn't know what was on there the fact that you have that much, the fact that you like it's just a lot of secrecy and it just feels uncomfortable.

Niq:

Yeah, you, you, you need some help even if it's just a therapist to help with your mom, while it's okay for you to indulge in this activity, like he gave him no resources, no help. He's just like, yeah, yeah, sure, I'll take your pointy thumb drive from you. Maybe he wasn't a good vicar. I don't think he was. Like I'm like it's one of those things. This is like a Maybe he wasn't a good vicar.

Jess:

I don't think he was Like I'm like it's one of those things. This is like an outpouring of how good you think you are, more than you know you really doing the work. Because, again, yeah, it was just weird, the situation was weird and it was creepy and, yeah, there was no intervention. Even if you could intervene that day, you didn't set up a council session. Okay, I'm going to take this from you, but we need to talk about this.

Niq:

Right.

Jess:

But you know what?

Niq:

I think that gap between who we think we are and who we actually are yeah, that's true Is a real thing and it's ripe for exploration because, just like the journalist. And it's ripe for exploration because, just like the journalist, like she professed to be one person and then Jefferson very quickly showed her- who she was.

Jess:

I agree it's that gap between yeah, I love the way you put that the gap between who we think we are and who we actually are.

Niq:

Yeah because, like the mom, like she was, she went from being a suburban mom so quickly to a co-kidnapper. Because, like she could have called the police, she could have let her out. You know, like put a stop, like okay he made, because his charges would have been so less like every minute that Janice was in the basement. The situation was more untenable and harder to explain. You know like it was, I don't know. I got so and I enjoyed the show oh yeah, I enjoyed it.

Jess:

We definitely enjoyed the show, enjoying, like, all the moral questions that it brings up what would you do in certain situations which I think is like the those questions are floated out there because I think you're supposed to think about you know yourself and your own morality, what you think you would do versus what you would do. It was very enjoyable, right, you know, like the topics and the subjects are kind of heavy they are, they are.

Niq:

But I think that it I feel like they chose like one of the worst things that you could find because they want to make it was to be very clear on how serious it is. You know what I'm saying? Like finding material like that. It is so serious that whoever belongs to their life is over yeah, Essentially serious that whoever belongs to their life is over yeah, Essentially and so. But I feel like the vicar went to the drew the wrong conclusion.

Jess:

Because everything was about everything was about him being a vicar, everything was about him being a vicar. So, like this is like okay, what am I supposed to do in this situation? Because I'm the vicar, I'm supposed to protect him. I'm not supposed to tell his secrets. I understand him trying to protect his son more than I understand him trying to protect Edgar. Right, because I'm like there's got to be a limit. And again, I'm not even sure which denomination he is. He refers to himself as a vicar. He wears the priest's collar, but he's married with children, so he's not a priest, but there's got to be some line to where Episcopalian or Presbyterian or Anglican or something like that, you know, but because yeah, like the at what point is it a responsibility to protect the community?

Niq:

right, I don't, I just don't. I know that, like when it comes to like catholicism, like confession is very, very sacred, and I don't think that there is. I don't think it's like therapy, where if they say certain things you're allowed to tell, you're not supposed to tell anything, right like. But in this context there was that.

Jess:

It wasn't a confession. It doesn't make sense.

Niq:

There is no, I can't understand his thought pattern.

Jess:

He did not tell you in confession. He gave you literal proof, like a lot of times you have. You might have a suggestion, you might have a concern, another concerned citizen, you might have a he said, she said versus you know know thing with like two different parishioners. He gave you concrete proof of who he was and what he does does it go and maybe I'm reaching, I could be reaching.

Niq:

I feel like a lot of times the church does not value children the way that it should a lot of religious institutions. There's a lot of abuse of children and it's a lot of covering up which is interesting because he alludes to that in a sense of people are going to believe it.

Jess:

He says a line like people are going to believe it because I'm a vicar, but again, that's about how that affects you. You still never do the thing that people actually want you to do, which is to protect the children. People say that because historically, children have not been protected. Right, I mean and so, but your instinct is still not to protect them, is to protect yourself and so, but my thinking is is that the reason why he was willing to protect Edgar?

Niq:

Because, as an adult, he values Edgar more than these unnamed children that he doesn't know? Yeah, which I don't know how he values, whether he values Janet, who he does know that's very true, I don't understand his thinking.

Jess:

I don't either, and I don't know. This is very loosely related, but again, grasp of the straws here. Like Morag refers to Jefferson as like a you know, like a villainous misogynist. You know what I mean. I like that was interesting to me because I'm like I don't clearly see misogyny for him from him.

Niq:

But she said that and I believe her well, I don't know like he very much talks down to beth the journalist and the way that he talks about the wife that he discovers kills her husband, he very much has a certain amount of condescension for women. I could see it, even the way that he talks about his wife's murder. There's some things. I could see it, even the way that he talks about his wife's murder, like it's.

Jess:

There's some things. Yeah, I didn't doubt her. It wasn't a really clear-cut case, but I didn't doubt her when she said it. But I'm thinking the same thing Is Edgar's life more valuable because he's a man? Because clearly Janice is more beneficial to society?

Niq:

Right, I definitely think that this show plays with the fringes and plays with the margins. You know, like they, they like to like walk that line, they, they, they really blur the lines so that you can draw your own conclusions. Yeah, because I I feel like two people could watch this show and could feel very differently. Like somebody else could see this as like, oh you know, I would sacrifice anything to save my child. Right.

Jess:

You know that I. It's that line of belief.

Niq:

Here's the thing though I am some, I feel like I am that person, like I would do anything to save my child. But I don't feel like that's what he was doing, because I just feel like you know without a shadow of a doubt that that material does not belong to your son. You know without a shadow of a doubt who that material belongs to. So if I was going to save my child, I would have called the police immediately, told them everything.

Jess:

I knew and sent it over, which needed to happen anyway, because Edgar does need to be like. People need to be protected from him, right? Yeah, no, I agree, he very much saw it as I need to protect my child at all costs. Situations when it was like but this is not a life or death situation for your child and your child does have a way out of it, and it's about holding the person accountable. Who was responsible, right? And that affects your child too.

Niq:

And just the way that he was like talking to Janice and trying to like not let her leave, and I'm just like it immediately got weird.

Jess:

It immediately got weird, it really got uncomfortable and I'm like and how do you not realize at this point that you blocking a door is going to feel intimidating to any woman? You know what I mean? That you continually approaching her when she's backing away from you is going to feel intimidating. So yeah, that that layer of massage who you all value and who you all don't.

Niq:

You know, like that is very like.

Niq:

I don't know if men really understand how easily it is for a woman to get physically intimidated and how, like, often we feel intimidation and they may not even know that they're being intimidated, like I've, I will see women in conversations and then next you know like they're stepping back to create space you know what I mean like they're looking around, like and it just happens so naturally because that's what we're used to and a lot of times I feel like men don't even realize that they're being physically intimidating.

Niq:

A lot of times they do and they use it to their advantage. But as women, like we are taught to look for the signs before the signs. You know like to monitor, like you know, men's temperature, men's moods, to check the way that we say stuff. You know men's temperature, men's moods, to check the way that we say stuff. You know to try to de-escalate situations and, when we can't, to create space or to prepare ourselves to defend ourselves. And I don't, as I don't think that he even understood how, in that moment, how intimidating and scary that was for Janice.

Jess:

I don't know why, like that one scene where the wife is holding her hands to the window and he's talking to her. I was scared for the wife. I was like, oh god, he's gonna throw the window down on her. Imagine he doesn't hurt the wife, he doesn't do anything to the wife. But even that one kind of creeped me out a little bit once you cross a certain line, you are capable of anything and he says my son is the most important person in the world, or like my son is more important than anything.

Jess:

And I was like you're saying that to your life and I do get how important children are to people like I. Get that. I don't take nothing away from that. But you're also saying this to your wife, who you've endangered in so many ways unnecessarily.

Niq:

Right At this point, because she's so complicit in the situation she has no future either. She's all tied up in this kidnapping of Janet. He sacrificed her future, too, for a situation that never had a real solution.

Jess:

He did. He sacrificed everybody's future in the situation to save one his son.

Niq:

Who, in the end, doesn't end up being saved? I don't think so, because even if he manages to escape the situation without charges, he is going to be so psychologically damaged. His mom is dead.

Jess:

He knows what he did to janice, even if his dad is taking credit he liked it like they had a good relationship, like a good working relationship, and the son is, like he's kind of difficult, he's in his rebellious phase, so for him to connect to an adult, that was significant and the son ended up having to move anyway because he moved in with his uncle or aunt or something like that, and I'm just like I'm like.

Niq:

Now he is a more damaged version of himself and he's already crossed that line into physical violence. Well, guess what? Anytime he's upset, it will be easier for him to go back to that place. You've opened a door for him that was closed before. Yeah, so I I have never seen someone mess up a situation more than I think the vicar did agreed, so I don't know. I wonder what made them decide to do this as a limited series? I think it was like what? Four episodes?

Jess:

Yeah, four episodes.

Niq:

Four episodes about an hour long. And here's the thing though UK, they are not scared to create a short season. They are not scared they will do a three-episode season and look at you dead in the face. Faces, if that's normal, and the shows are always so good. They are always so good and they can do a lot with a little bit of time. They do. They will pack in a lot, but I'm always like, hey, I could have had a little more. Yeah, I'm always a little bit hungry because I'm like give me more, give me more.

Jess:

The way that it ended is the perfect setup for a second season, some different. So the way that the show ends, janice is actually asking comes to visit Jefferson in prison, you know, and asks him to help her murder her husband, which we did not know. Janice had a husband, right, we've never seen the husband, don't know what's going on at all, and she comes in so calm, cool and collected and asks for that help from Jefferson and it seems like he's amenable to it and I'm like oh, oh, this sets up such a you know good to dive into some more moral questions. And is he going to help her and why and where is it going to go?

Niq:

if Janice is running away from her husband, that would explain why she doesn't have a strong social media presence, why she's hesitant to be out socially while she keeps her life so small. It would make sense. It would make sense Because, imagine, with this story it was a big news story, so it would probably make it very easy for him to find her after this.

Jess:

Yeah. So I'm like why would you set us up like that if you never planned on doing a second?

Niq:

season, right, I don't know. This was not a fly-by-night season, right, I don't know? Like this was not a fly-by-night production. Like they had David Tennant, they had Stanley Tucci, they had what I thought was Cyndi Lauper. It was not Cyndi Lauper. The Vicar's Wife I thought was Cyndi Lauper, it was not Cyndi Lauper. Definitely doesn't look like Cyndi Lauper to you.

Jess:

I mean that's who you said something, I to you, I mean that's who you said something. I'm like, if she got her hair brown, then okay, I can see it.

Niq:

I was like I didn't even know Cyndi Lauper was acting. That was not Cyndi Lauper. But they have high quality which, if I'm very honest, the UK actually, they tend to have high quality actors. Maybe it's just the shows that I watch. I very seldom watch, I think maybe trash British TV. Yeah, I think I'm only seeing the best of the best.

Jess:

It's probably not making it. If it is trash, though you said what Probably not making it to our Right, that's what I'm saying.

Niq:

I'm like you know what? Actually, they probably have trash TV. I don't have access to it. I tend to watch the best of the best. I'm watch, I tend to watch the best of the best. So I'm like I don't understand what they were doing with this show. But I'm like you set up these really great characters, this like really compelling story and all of these open-ended questions for a limited series. Why would you do that?

Jess:

Why would you do that? Because, like, even like, I'm not even upset that we don't get answers. Well, to some of the questions, like the more plot questions, I do want answers, but, like the moral questions, of course, I'm perfectly fine with leaving those open. Let's do a whole nother set of moral questions next season that you don't answer also that's fine. But, also, why does a woman want to kill this man? Why does she?

Niq:

want to kill her husband. Why did you cut off your wife's head and that's the other thing I'm like.

Jess:

okay, so I know they're probably like if they were going to do seasons they would draw it out. We probably wouldn't see it until like the last season what happened. But even so, I still need to know why he did what he did to his wife.

Niq:

They could have did a season that, just went back and told that story.

Jess:

And if that's the final season, I'm fine. But like can we get four or five Right Working up to figuring?

Niq:

out what happened to his wife. Why do I feel like I'm about to send Stanley Tucci an email and I'm sending that like I know him but I just feel like his email is probably like stanleytucci at gmailcom.

Jess:

You're so silly, right? Somebody give us more seasons.

Niq:

I need more. I'm still hungry, but yeah, excellent show, very different, I appreciate, refreshing, even though it did have its heavier moments. It had its light moments to me, but ultimately, like the story and the questions and the theoreticalness of it all overshadowed like the harsh, like the harsh stuff for me personally. Yeah, agreed, I'm excited Me too. So where do you want to go next? Like I feel like we really kind of started like with like a lot of like heavy stuff and then lately we've been veering back over to the lighter stuff, like well, this is like we've got another light episode coming up.

Jess:

This was not a light've got another light episode coming up. This was not a light episode or a light show, but I'm down for doing some light shows, like Running Point, which I really enjoyed. I did too. I want to do a mix. You know me, I want to do a mix of different stuff. I enjoyed the Running Point. It's very nostalgic, I think, because of the actors that are in it. I enjoyed the running point it's very nostalgic for, I think, because of the actors that are in it.

Niq:

Definitely want to get to some more complicated stuff like White Lotus and kind of figure those things out. Oh yes, yes, white Lotus, season one we're going to start with. We're going to take that show season by season because it is, yeah, it's dense. It is, it's dense but enjoyable. So I'm really excited about some of the things that we have coming up. Guys, we really hope that you enjoy talking with us. We would love to hear from you like, feel free to comment, like send us emails. If there's episodes that you, you know, topics that you want us to go over, we can find a show to correlate to the topic. Or if you have a show you want us to review, let us know. If you feel like we've gotten it wrong, let us know if you agree with us. We want to hear your opinions, we want to hear what you think. Yes, join us next time, guys. See you on the next episode. Bye.