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Inside Man: A Moral Maze

• Niq & Jess • Episode 23

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Stanley Tucci delivers a mesmerizing performance as Jefferson Grieff, a former criminology professor now sitting on death row for the murder of his wife. From behind prison walls, he uses his brilliant analytical mind to solve cases that stump authorities—all while insisting he deserves his death sentence.

When British journalist Beth Davenport arrives seeking an interview, she becomes entangled in Jefferson's world after her new acquaintance Janice mysteriously disappears. What begins as two separate stories—a prisoner solving crimes in America and a vicar's family in England—gradually converges into a profound examination of human morality and breaking points.

The true brilliance of Inside Man lies in its exploration of Jefferson's unsettling philosophy: anyone can become a murderer given the right circumstances. We watch as David Tennant's character, a respected vicar, spirals into increasingly desperate actions to protect his son from a misunderstanding that threatens to destroy their lives. Meanwhile, Janice proves to be anything but a passive victim, using remarkable psychological manipulation skills to survive her captivity in the vicar's basement.

The series refuses easy moral judgments, instead placing every character in ethically ambiguous territory. Even as we're repulsed by their actions, we find ourselves understanding their motivations. The show balances its dark subject matter with unexpected moments of humor and humanity, creating a viewing experience that's as intellectually stimulating as it is emotionally engaging.

Whether you're drawn to crime dramas, psychological thrillers, or thoughtful examinations of human nature, Inside Man offers a provocative look at what lies beneath the surface of ordinary lives. Watch now and join the conversation about where your own moral breaking point might be.

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, and welcome to our next episode. Today we're going to be discussing Inside man on Netflix. I'm one of your hosts, nick, and I'm Jess upon it again and I love when I stumble upon a show that I've seen but I haven't seen in a while and I get to watch it again and it's almost like watching it for the first time. But you kind of have a vague memory. Had you seen the show before I suggested it?

Jess:

No, I had not watched it. I saw it recommended on Netflix, but I never took the time to watch it before.

Niq:

I like the show because it poses a lot of ethical questions and moral questions and in some ways it has me judging myself, because I find a lot of the characters very likable, even though they shouldn't be.

Jess:

Yeah, yeah, well, I think. Okay, yes, all right. So Inside man is a show about a man who is in prison for the murder of his wife, who is played by Stanley Tucci. He murdered his wife in some grim, gruesome way, but he has this unique ability to really kind of get to the bottom of different crime scenes ability to really kind of get to the bottom of different crime scenes. So people come to him with different cases or different crimes that they want to help him solve and they allow him to solve them while in prison because he's so good at it.

Jess:

So the main story here is a woman who meets this woman casually on the train. They start an associateship, like a really early kind of friendship, and then the woman goes missing and she believes that she's missing, but because she doesn't know her that well, she doesn't have a lot to go on and she brings him this case. So the show is him working through figuring out what happened and also, you see, what actually happened to her friend, whose name is Janice, along the way, along the way.

Niq:

So for this episode, I kind of want to discuss what the show is trying to say, the questions that they're asking, and if we get any answers in those questions, how's that going? That sounds good to me. So the main character, who's played by Stanley Tucci, who's like a criminology professor who's on death row for murdering his wife, who uses another inmate who's also on death row, who's like a serial killer, he uses him because he has, like what do they call the memory. He has a photographic memory, yeah, photographic memory. He uses him almost like a tape recorder. So they interview people and they take on cases and they try to help solve cases, and so one of the things that Jefferson says is he basically says that anybody can be a murderer in the right situation. Correct? Do you agree with that?

Jess:

Yes, I think we all have like I don't think that there's anyone that's like purely innocent could never commit a crime. I do think that there are certain crimes that, like you know, certain people wouldn't commit. But yeah, murder, that basic one, I think, yeah, most people could be pushed to that.

Niq:

Your mom. I could never see your mom committing murder. Your mom's like one of the sweetest people you could see it.

Jess:

I don't feel like I can answer that question.

Niq:

I know that everybody has their, everybody has like their breaking point, and I guess if you put people, a lot of people, maybe they're in like survival. You know situations, Maybe you could be. But is that murder, though, if you're in a survival situation?

Jess:

Did you kill someone? Yes, that's murder. That is murder Like it's back of, like self-defense. That is still murder Like that.

Niq:

Now that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to be punished for every murder, because if is self-defense, then yeah, of course I don't want that person punished, but did they still commit a murder? Yes, see, when I, when I felt like the question I felt like they were posing was not a self-defense question. I felt like they were like can you create a situation where someone who would not inherently take someone's life by choice decides to take someone's life by choice?

Jess:

So like, okay, so we look at what happens in this situation. So we have the vicar who is trying to protect his son from a false application, application goodness accusation.

Jess:

And that's kind of why he takes things in his own hands. It goes down the realm of crime In his mind. Everything he's doing is to protect his son. So you have to remember, mom, I'm like you know what I mean. If she felt like it's protecting, you know, her children, she'd do a lot and I think most people would. That's why it's so understandable the kind of situation he gets himself into now. Yes, of course I could look looking at it. I'm like, okay, yeah, I can see a lot of ways that you could have got out of this. You handled this completely wrong because you were in a situation where you were kind of like heightened and irrational. But the base of it for him is he feels like it's a more moral decision to protect his child than the things that he does to protect his child.

Niq:

And so the Jefferson, who is like the guy on death row. He spends the entire like I feel like the entire show saying don't like me, I'm not a good man. Do you agree with that? Yeah, Do you also find him very likable, though he is very likable.

Jess:

But how often is that People write letters to serial killers in prison? It's crazy Because there's something like you could be a bad person who does bad things, but be very charismatic, and Jefferson is very charismatic.

Niq:

He is. So is the vicar, so is his partner in crime, so is the vicar. So is his partner in crime. Like the guy who's like his video reporter? Yeah, they go into details about their crimes and, like the, what is his friend on death row?

Jess:

I don't remember his name.

Niq:

Dylan is like a serial killer and like a cannibal and so they kind of go into like rather graphic detail about his crimes. But it's such a in such a light hearted way.

Niq:

You feel very much removed from the crime yeah, but gruesome crimes, but they present it in such a way that you feel so far removed from the crimes that it doesn't feel real, maybe Because it's very much giving buddy comedy, as very serious things are happening. Jefferson is investigating the crimes, but he does not leave the prison. He's on death row, he has very limited visits, very limited phone calls, so he's like kind of pulling the strings from prison, so this is not something where he's out in the streets and so you have like these scenes with him in the prison and then you actually have actually have like scenes of what is going on. Um, as you as like he's like looking for this woman, janice. And another thing that I found interesting was the way that he got the case.

Niq:

Um was the journalist came and she wanted to interview him and he really wasn't interested in the interview. And then she came back and she's like I have a case for you. And he said, if he, if he's like you, can't have both, you can, either I'll either investigate your case or I'll give you an all access interview. But you have to choose in this moment. And if I, if I give you the interview, you can never ask me about the case. And she said, okay, I'll take the interview, and I was floored.

Jess:

I was not Really. Yeah, I was not, I wasn't because I'm like, like, he's clearly like. So he's clearly trying to teach her a lesson One. He, like you said, he's a criminology professor. He spent his life as a professor, an academic, an academician. He, it sounds like you know, even though his wife's murder sounds gruesome, to what we know about the wife's murder right now, it sounds like a crime of passion. Not that he was a career criminal, you know, what he is is a professor.

Jess:

And so the way he talks to everybody Dylan, the warden, everybody it's like he's teaching and he teaches through the Socratic method. He asks a lot of questions, he tries to get you to figure it out for yourself. He leads you but he doesn't directly tell you the answer. And that's what he's doing with her. She comes in the first time. She comes in to interview him. She's very judgmental, she's very, like you know, disgusted, obviously disgusted with him, and he, like you know, disgusted, obviously disgusted with him, and he makes a comment that, like, you think you're, you know, you think you're something about. Basically, she thinks she's better than him, like, or everyone, most people, right, and so he is trying to bring her down a notch to say no, listen, your career is more important than this woman that you are pretending is your friend because they just met they did just me.

Niq:

but she knew her well enough. But the lady sent her like a picture and like she had reasonable enough suspicion to think that that woman was in trouble.

Jess:

She did. No, I'm not doubting that at all. And, of course, as the audience, you know that the woman really is in trouble, right, and you also know that they met in a situation where Janice saved her from something and now she's kind of like a little bit, you know, wants to save Janice as well. So no, it's not a question about you know, everything was real, of course, everything was real, and Janice is really in trouble. What he is trying to teach her is that this kind of moral superiority that you have about yourself is like built on a false house. Because you are genuinely concerned about Janice, you are also ambitious.

Niq:

That's what I was shocked about. Like you know, this woman is in trouble and you know this man can help, even though it's crazy because, like the prisoner is in the US, he's an American prisoner. Am I right about that? Yeah, you're right and then, but the actual woman who's missing is in England, so he's in it, but you know that like he can help her yeah, and the journalist is from England, right, but you choose, you choose the interview because I'm like, let's say you choose, okay, help my friend and your friend has helped.

Niq:

Couldn't you just interview her afterwards? You know what I'm saying? Like I, just I. If, if you needed to have an interview, okay, you needed to have an interview. Why would you not like have him save your friend, find your friend, and then you can write a first person account because you your friend, and then you can write a first-person account because your friend was saved and you can interview your friend? When she chose the interview, I could not believe it. I don't know. It made me look at her the same way that I looked at the murderers.

Jess:

But he saw that. Jefferson saw that from the beginning and that's what he was trying to say. You think you're morally superior but when given the opportunity, you will do something that is self-serving, right, and she kind of, in a way, needed to be brought down a peg. He's an interested person to do it, but you know what I mean. But yeah, that's true, and so thankfully I'm sorry real quick. Also, like once you realize your friend was in danger. She is a journalist, she's got good instincts, she knew she was in trouble. You can flew your behind back there and said I'll do this interview later, I'll do the investigation myself interview later I'll do the investigation myself.

Jess:

You chose to go back and still continue to talk to this guy because her what is it? She's a journalist and she writes all about crime. I don't know what you call those things, goodness, but anyway, like her specialty, her specialty area is crime. You know what I mean. So you could have chosen to go back home and investigate that and say you know what, I'll try this again with this dude again later, right, yeah, at that time he didn't have a date for his execution.

Niq:

Right. So yes, luckily he takes the case without letting her know. He lets her know eventually, but she doesn't find out until later on that he's actually been secretly like investigating, doesn't find out until later on that he's actually been secretly investigating her friend being missing while doing several investigations. While investigating her case, he solves two other cases. The case with the senator was very interesting.

Jess:

With the money being deposited. Yes, that was yeah, and that's again. I'm like it's hard to say that was hilarious because it's such a serious topic that you know Right, but the way it's presented is comical.

Niq:

It is because, like you said, what did you call it? The Socratic method? Yeah, he figured out the answer, like someone presented a case to him and he figured out the answer immediately. He did not tell the guy who bought the case to him the answer, because he basically asked him hey, like he's like you, you, so the politician said that he had been accused of rape 30 years ago and that he didn't do it.

Niq:

And so he was having this situation where every time he had sex with his wife, he was getting a deposit for the same amount of money into his bank account. He couldn't understand why. And so Jefferson's asking him questions, and Jefferson immediately puts two and two together and says hey, I know for a fact that, because I think he had like three accusations, he's like I know for a fact that you've raped at least one of these women. And the politician was like whatever, you don't know what you're talking about. And Jefferson's like I know exactly what happened, but he never told the politician. And then so Dylan is trying to figure it out. And so he's having Dylan like ask questions of him and kind of do thought exercises to eventually, like he kind of leads Dylan to like the answer, which is like it's very interesting because they're both on death row, but it's like they're trying to learn and understand the human condition and they're both.

Jess:

They're both on death row. They're both incredibly intelligent different skill sets, but incredibly intelligent, which is why they're able to learn from each other. Yeah, but yeah, they're able to learn from each other. Yeah, but yeah, they're trying to. I do think that they're both trying to learn about the human experience. So he's a criminology professor, so he's always been fascinated with crime and why people do what they do, and probably these moral questions that he keeps posing to everyone. And then Dylan is almost like he's trying to learn about these humans from outside, as if he's not.

Niq:

Right, that is, I agree Like it. And I wonder if that like Dylan, with the fact that he was like a predator and a cannibal and he did a lot of like body dissection, if that was him trying to understand humanity because he does not feel like it.

Jess:

Because he doesn't understand, he has no capacity for empathy. None you know so like and that I can imagine. That removes you from the human experience. He's still fascinated with it, though.

Niq:

Right, it was very like I feel like Jefferson. Even though he knows how he ended up in the situation where he killed his wife, I think part of him he still doesn't understand it and I feel like he's trying to work through it with these cases like I feel like he understands it all too well.

Niq:

I think he's trying to get everybody else to understand like you also have this capacity maybe that's what it is, because it's just like people ask him very direct questions about why he killed his wife and he will not explain it. But it's very clear that he knows that there's a lot of context that people don't have, that only he has, that he's not willing to share, correct, and I don't know what is that context? Is that a way of him trying to protect his wife?

Jess:

I don't think that we're going to know until it gets revealed, or if it gets revealed, what actually happened and where her head is, because he says little things. He gives you little nuggets, like he says once to I think it's the reporter, which is Beth, if you ever really love someone, don't come home early yeah, I heard him say that and I'm like okay, so was she cheating?

Jess:

you know, did you come home and say something. I feel like it's something that feels basic for him, so I'm like I feel like it was something even worse right. Yeah, I hate that they never explain that honestly, yeah especially because is this a limited series or it is, it is we're not getting another, no, no no, it came out in 2022, so I figured by now we weren't going to get another one. But like that, sucks.

Niq:

It was never, I don't think. I think it was always meant to be open-ended in that way.

Jess:

But even the ending with Janice coming back to him.

Niq:

Yeah, I think it's.

Jess:

I'm excited for season two and Janice to be the villain. Can I tell you, Janice is one of my favorite characters.

Niq:

I also enjoy her. I love Janice so much.

Niq:

Here's the thing Honestly, they did a very good job of writing characters who are neither black and white, you know who, who make impulsive decisions even when, like who are wrong in their rights and rights and they're wrong like I think that I. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed watching people twist themselves around trying to figure out a way. Janice is so intelligent. You kind of learn from the very beginning of the show that she is a very intelligent woman. She's fiercely independent. She's very moral. You know what I mean. I don't know. I don't agree with that one. You don't think that she's very moral. You know what I mean. Like she's, I don't know, I don't agree with that one. You don't think that she's moral. Not in the sense no innocent.

Niq:

I feel like, because think about it, like when, like the journalist is her name lydia yeah, lydia, lydia is her real name. I'm sorry, beth, when beth was like being like intimidated on the train by the guy like Janice like jumped in.

Jess:

When no one else would. She jumped in when no one else would. I don't think that Janice is a bad person. I just think like I don't think Janice is a bad person and she doesn't have, like these sort of base desires to do bad things. But I also think she has interesting morals and I think I'm like, oh, that's why I wish we were getting more of her Like, think about the way that she interacts with the son Like she does not. She's able to appeal to the son Like the vicar has a son who is just, is classic, highly intelligent, wants nothing to do with school, can do it easily but refuses to do it kind of rebellious kid right. And she's able to relate to him because she does not place judgment on the things that everybody else judges him for.

Niq:

Mm-hmm, but is that because she also is kind of outside of society in a certain way and that's why I'm saying she doesn't?

Jess:

I don't think her morals are necessarily very traditional. You know what I mean. Not that she doesn't have well, she does. There's a clear right and wrong when she sees the stuff on the computer. That's a very clear wrong. I don't think in most situations. Well, I can't even say that now.

Niq:

I think she has traditional morals but she doesn't have traditional socialization like she relates to people in a very different way, like, but I don't. I think that's different from morals like I think she's. She's very black and white to me when it comes to her morals, like right and wrong, like I feel like even crime and punishment, but I don't think she feels like she's not a warm, fluffy person. She doesn't want even honestly she doesn't really want to be friends with Beth, like Beth kind of like forces her to like be friends with her. You know she's very regimented socially. She's not like.

Jess:

Maybe morals is the wrong word. She doesn't have traditional values, I agree with that. I do agree with that, but to me makes her even more interesting.

Niq:

I wondered if she was autistic.

Jess:

Honestly, I wonder that about her and Dylan.

Niq:

I don't know, dylan, I think and here's the thing I'm going to use the wrong terms and you're going to have to correct me.

Jess:

Of course.

Niq:

I think that Dylan is a sociopath, if that's the one, that where he can't feel anything.

Jess:

Social personality disorder. But those things aren't mutually exclusive. There's also other things that he does and I mean, and I don't know for certain, like I don't feel strongly about it with Dylan, I don't necessarily feel strongly about it with Janice, I could see where it could be, but I don't feel strongly about autism with her either. But I'm like I just I just think for both of them I wonder. You know, it's a question like you know, not like a foregone conclusion Right.

Niq:

So I'm going to tell you why I feel like that with when it comes to Janice, because you know, autism is a spectrum. We know that. But there are people on that spectrum who are very direct, very black and white with their thinking, very regimented, like how she's, like I have this phone call scheduled with my sister. If there's no phone call, she's going to know it's a problem. How she talks about she is someone who takes long walks by herself without her phone, like she doesn't have a lot of social, like she doesn't have like a big social system and she's comfortable in that though she's very comfortable with that you know what I'm saying and like there's a certain subset, I feel like, of autistic people who don't get their joy and their motivation from social interaction.

Niq:

They get it from doing the things that they enjoy, and it has nothing to do with relating to other people. You know what I'm saying and so that's why I'm like oh, I wonder, you know? But she has a but the way she manipulates the son makes me like I don't know, because that's why I'm like, I'm not certain.

Jess:

She is incredibly manipulative as well, and she's very good at knowing what other people want in order to manipulate people. She's also very good at social cues. Which women who are on the spectrum are better at recognizing social cues than men typically, I'm not convinced. It's an interesting question. I'm not convinced it could go either way. Um, but yeah, her ability at social manipulation she starts manipulating the husband and the son from when she walks into the interview.

Jess:

Yes, she shapes him, she takes that office. She knows she's taking the office his, the um, the husband's office. She knows she's taking the office, his, the um, the husband's office. She knows she's putting situations to where he feels like he has to give her that office, right, and because she, she just wants to work in the office, but she does you know what I mean. And the same thing with the son. I'm like the way that, like she figures out the son's motivations, what's important to him, and is able to use that to get him to study math. Yes, she's very good at manipulating the situation, which is why it makes her such an interesting victim once the vicar takes her and imprisons her, basically in his basement, right, because she's so good at manipulating him, the only person, that she's not as good at manipulating the wife, which is also interesting to me.

Niq:

Right. But in the beginning though, it seemed like she was, like she was pulling strings with the wife and it started. It was working in the beginning, but the wife did clock her very easily as soon as, like she saw, like her husband, like going in one direction, you know, and she's like wait a minute, like what's going on? Because, like every time they go down and talk to janice, because they have janice in their basement, every time they go down and talk to janice, janice is telling them very divergent stories or telling, you know, telling them things about the other one. That's not true, you know, she, and the wife does clock it. She's like wait a minute, no, no, this is not right. She tells her husband and he still doesn't see it.

Jess:

No, because she's so good at manipulating them too, the men. The wife clocks it from when she gets the office. Because she does say why would you give her the office? Tell her you don't want to Tell her. You don't want to Tell her his son he's a vicar, which is like a priest In other words, a priest in British, and so she comes to tutor his son on Sundays.

Jess:

She was like, tell her you need your office on Sunday. She clocks it then that Janice could be manipulative, but of course he doesn't figure it out. So like, and I don't think that the vicar is dumb, he's not dumb, he's a smart guy, but he's not as smart as his wife or Janice.

Niq:

I don't think it's a question of intelligence. I think it's a question of him feeling like, because he's a vicar, he has to see the best in everyone and he has to try to serve and help everyone, instead of like, like dissecting situations and making good decisions for the situation he's. He has this woman in his basement, like chained to a wall, and he's trying to convince her that he's a good person. Yeah, and so, because he's trying to appear as a good guy, instead of saying you know what, at this point I've done a criminal act. I need to go all in on being a criminal he's trying to convince her to be a good guy, that he's a good guy. So he's only going halfway and she uses that to her advantage. You know like she does.

Jess:

But that's why I say Janice is very good at recognizing people's underlying motivation and using that to manipulate them.

Niq:

She does, she does and I.

Jess:

Which makes her probably one of the most fascinating victims of a crime I've ever seen depicted.

Niq:

Yes, my question was during that situation, yes, janice was the victim, but did you also feel like for most of that situation, she was in control?

Jess:

No, yeah, I mean. Well, to some degree, because she couldn't unchain herself, she couldn't get out that basement and Janice, like, he imprisons her. I don't know if we're supposed to explain. She discovers something at their home and so a series of like just these weird things happen to, where he injures her, all unintentionally, leading to her being imprisoned in the basement because he thinks that she's going to falsely accuse his son of something which, the way Janice discovers the information, makes it seem like his son did something wrong that he shouldn't have done. Right but Right. But yes, like she does now from. She's chained into his basement, she can't get out, but she is emotionally manipulating these people left and right but in an attempt to save herself.

Niq:

Right, absolutely Right. This is not for fun, this is for survival, and she's doing her level best to make the situation alive, giving them everything All she got.

Jess:

Yeah, it's fascinating.

Niq:

And it doesn't. I mean, it doesn't help that these people are criminals, but they're not criminals. This is the priest and his wife and they're holding her hostage while trying to not let the son know what's going on, while also like trying, because eventually some even though she doesn't have a big social circle eventually someone's going to figure out that she's missing. So they're trying to cover that up, while they're trying to figure out how to diffuse this accusation.

Jess:

You know, like it's, it's a lot going on and these people are not criminal minded, but they also don't have just plain old common sense because of the heightened emotional situation and because of the threat of what happens to this, and I think in other situations they would, but they are so and that again goes back to like these different moral questions. So, like in his mind, the vicar's mind, everything he's doing is justified because he's trying to protect his son, and I'm pretty sure in his wife's mind for the most part, even though there's several times where she's like dude.

Niq:

Let's hang this up the same for us well, I feel like the wife was trying to kill Janice early and often.

Jess:

But once she kind of realized that he wasn't going to kill her or she didn't think he was going to kill her she was like, okay, well, now we need to give up at this point. I don't know, she kind of waffles too.

Niq:

Given the opportunity, she would have killed Janice. He stopped her, she would have killed Janice. If he stopped her, she would have killed Janice, and he was the only reason. And so then he decides that he's going to kill Janice and he convinces his wife to go away. He doesn't want her to know what he's doing, even though she's not crazy.

Jess:

She's not going away.

Niq:

And then he finds the slowest way to try and kill her. And so this is once again you're trying to be a good person because you want to kill her, but you don't want her to know like he's trying to kill her with carbon monoxide, so he just puts like a heater that he knows that leaks carbon monoxide in the basement with her, and so he does it like he, instead of just like strangling her or shooting her or stabbing her or poisoning her.

Jess:

Because I'm like, here's the thing if you're trying to make the moral judgment, janice technically did nothing wrong. She was just coming to do her job and discovered something that she shouldn't. You know that she you know what I mean. That she, I guess she shouldn't discover sounds wrong. But she just discovered something you know and, of course, was upset by it because it was something that was very upsetting. So, like the moral thing, even if you had to like say you feel like you had to kill her to protect your son, like why not give her something that's poison that's going to kill her quickly and in her sleep and you know what I mean that's not going to make her suffer.

Niq:

Right, especially because, like she had already had her for a couple days and they they had already like she'd already been like drinking whiskey, like they had given her given her whiskey to like relax and stuff. So I'm like, okay, at this point she'll pretty much eat or drink whatever you're giving her, but also like, even if you didn't want to do poison which to me poison sounds like the best idea I'm like putting that heater in there and killing her slowly so she doesn't know what's going on until it's too late. Is once again you trying to be like a good person? Because it's like very hands off and it's probably an accident.

Jess:

So you still like. Even though you're about to kill Janice and you've been put in prison for two days, the vicar is still obsessed with what she thinks about him which is very weird.

Niq:

Like you gotta just make a decision. You know what I'm saying. Like once you change her in the basement, like it was over what you got you, you go all, all or nothing.

Jess:

At that point right right.

Niq:

But he, I don't know, he tried so many different ways to like, defuse, like the accusation and it never worked. And actually things like the more he tried to defuse the situation, the worse things got. And I'm just like you don't know what you're doing. You like you don't know what you're doing, like you don't know what you're doing, so you need to either go to the police and just come clean about everything you know or like just kill her, bury her body. You know like.

Niq:

But Janice is so. She was so smart Like she convinced them to like send her sister an email, because she's like well, my sister knows that I'm going to do like a. Janice is so she was so smart Like she convinced them to like send her sister an email Cause she's like well, my sister knows that I'm going to do like a Skype call with her, so you have to cancel the, cancel it, tell her that I'm walking in the woods without my phone. And they do it. And then the. And then, like the next day, the wife is like wait a minute, how would she send the email if she's walking in the woods without her phone?

Niq:

And I'm like yeah, how would?

Jess:

you, yeah, exactly, and not only like so many things. I think Janice set them up so many ways to like both. I'm trying to get out of here, but if you do kill me, they're going to know it's you, because again, this is also going to ping from your house, right? Yes, you know that, my laptop, that this email came from your house, right, yes, you know that, my laptop, that this email came from your house. Right, it was like and then she, oh, the funniest part is okay, so when he first puts her down in the basement and then she, he leaves her for a while. And when he comes back to her that very first time and she's like I peed in every corner of this room.

Niq:

She did and she's like I left my blood. My DNA is everywhere.

Jess:

She has cut her own arms and has spread her blood all over his basement, so there's no way that they're not going to find out that she was in that basement.

Niq:

Yes, like she, from the very beginning, was playing catch. She was, and I love that because she's like. I don't have time to sit in the corner and cower and cry, and the only time I feel like she does that is when she's doing it on purpose to manipulate them, like when she convinces the vicar that the wife punches her in the face, or is it the opposite?

Jess:

she did both. She told them it seemed like it to both. She tried to make, but the wife didn't buy it. Because by that time the wife is like this chick is playing us. She don't fully understand, but she's like but I know you're trying to play us. And so she does it to both. She makes it seem like, she tries to make it seem like the husband, but she doesn't buy it. And then she tries and then she does the and the husband believes it. The husband believes yes, yes, she absolutely hit herself. She did this to herself.

Niq:

She did. She did Also. Eventually, the son finds her in the basement and spends time down there with her. Why did he not let her go?

Jess:

This is like. That is probably the most frustrating part of the show to me, and I feel like they wrote it well. They wrote it perfectly accurately. So it's not that, it's just the the idea that a teenager has to be the one that you have to reason with in order, because, I don't care how smart he is, he's still an irrational, hormonal teenager and she's and he's worried about all the wrong things when they are both in danger, because at this point he finds her gets locked into the basement as well and the carbon monoxide poison has already started, right. So they're both on the time clock and there's nothing she's saying to make him rational. And I'm just like, oh my God to be with a teenager and have to do this. He wants to figure out what's going on. It's not time to figure out what's going on. It's not time to figure out what's going on.

Niq:

It's time to get out of this basement. Absolutely my question. I'm like let her out and then question your parents.

Jess:

And then question your parents. No, you have to figure out what's going on, Because as soon as he is so focused on trying to figure out whether or not his parents are lying to him, I'm like he's going to kill her. I thought he was going to kill her.

Niq:

Because he's going to be. Then he's going to be trying to prove his parents and, you know, protect his parents or whatever. And I'm like sir, I, just I the lack of survival skills was driving me crazy. Well, I think by the time that they both realized that there was carbon monoxide poisoning well, I don't even think he ever realized it by the time janice realized that they were being poisoned, he was already so irrational and delusional and keyed up that he wasn't even listening to her. But then the fact that he ends up attacking her and trying to kill her, and I'm just like listen, you don't even know.

Niq:

Clearly has happened right you know, my thing was once you called your parents and asked them direct questions and they both lied to your face. My next call would have been to the police.

Jess:

You know it's like, but you know it's that self-preservation. Because here's the thing. It's not that I would want to get my parents in trouble. I would never want to get my parents in trouble. But at this point you are locked in a basement with carbon monoxide poisoning. So the only answer is police. Right, you know what I mean. The only answer is police. You got your cell phone batteries limited. You got a limited number of calls. If I call 911, I know someone's coming. You know it's not even like at this point trying to disprove or understand my parents at this point, because it's just like I can call my parents and they not answer. I don't have to have. I know 911 is going to pick up and I know somebody coming to get these walls out. You don't need to knock the walls down or whatever you got to do to get me out of this basement. So if I can get on the phone and say, hey, address, I'm locked in a basement here, somebody's coming.

Niq:

Yeah, but he didn't know about the carbon monoxide poisoning when he was calling his parents and stuff.

Jess:

You know that you locked in a basement and ain't no way out.

Niq:

He does, but he I don't know. He does know that and he knew his battery was limited. I don't. He didn't even go upstairs and bang on the door.

Niq:

He did At the very beginning, yeah, but before the poison took hold he did for a while, because I'm like I would have been at the top of the stairs banging and banging and banging. Or would have been at the top of the stairs banging and banging and banging. Or when his dad called and he asked his dad a direct question and he lied. Yes, he lied. I would have been like well, why am I in the basement with Janice right now?

Jess:

Exactly Because you got to at least think that your parents are going to preserve you, Right? Because I'm like you know that's my point about the like no survival skills. So you have this full conversation with your dad on low battery. You are locked in the basement. He actually did pick up, so I am locked in the basement.

Niq:

Come get me and we, but we can just talk about this Janice situation get me out the basement yeah, I don't know.

Niq:

I thought it was a very crazy way to react to the situation, you know. And eventually he puts two and two, and three and four together and he figures out that Janice thinks that he's committed, like this heinous crime that he has not committed and that his parents are trying to protect him, and that, and so he ends up attacking Janice. And what is crazy is, mind you, I have seen this show before, but I thought I think when it first came out, when he attacked her, I was like, oh man, janice is gone.

Jess:

I forgot me too, and that was the saddest part.

Niq:

I was like, no, she fought so hard right she was so close, although so Janice does end up surviving she does. But I forgot because I was so drawn back into the story. I was so drawn back into the story and I'm just like every I'm like rooting for Janice so hard, even though it's like it's not that the vicar. Once again, he's a very likable character. First of all, the fact that they casted David Tennant, who played Doctor who one of the most well-known and likable characters in this role. Like you can't help but love him, even as he's like like doing crazy stuff and making terrible decisions. It's the like. I mean, that's Dr who, though, you know, and so it's that that is funny.

Jess:

I definitely have better you know higher feelings of him as Dr who than I do as a vicar. I'm like I know that means a lot to some people but like, right, but I'm like, but yeah, but it's like, but it's Dr who right, there were so many little funny moments in the show for the show to be about like such drama and so heavy.

Niq:

It had like these random light moments, like when the delivery man came to the door as he's like trying to like he's got the carbon monoxide going. And then, like the delivery guys come to the door as he's like trying to like he's got the carbon monoxide going and then, like the delivery guys come to the door, try to deliver a package, he's like, oh, that's not my address, it's like the neighbor's house. The guy's like, oh, are you the vicar? My mom loves you. And like he convinces the guy to leave. And then the guy comes back. He's like, oh, they're not home, can I leave it with you? Can you make a video for my mom? And because the vicar wants to be well liked, he like as he's trying to murder someone in the basement. He's like doing like a cameo happy birthday message to somebody's mom and referring and trying to refer him.

Jess:

Who asked him to refer himself as the sexy vicar? Like the whole time I'm just like I just want him to get through the sexy vicar line, that's it and I just like, like I just want him to get through the sexy vicar line, that's it.

Niq:

And I just like, and it's just like. Those little pops of humor are like they're definitely needed. They're definitely needed. I appreciate it, though, but I even okay.

Niq:

Did you feel like the way that the wife died had some humor to it? Yes, so they're like, which is funny, because she had been trying to it. Yes, so they're like, which is funny because she had been trying to convince him to kill Janet. And she ends up like she goes to Janice's house to try to plant stuff to make it seem like Janice was home after her appointment with them, because everyone who would look at Janice's schedule be able to know the last place that she was was at her tutoring appointment with the family. They're trying to convince you know, the world, that you know she was there, but then she left. So they take her purse and her laptop the wife does back to her apartment. She happens to be there at the same time that beth, the journalist, is there trying to, like, look around the house and figure out what's going on. So she's trying to get away from Beth, who's asking all of these questions, and she steps off the curb and she gets hit by a bus and I'm like that.

Niq:

It was hilarious. I don't know why. It was funny in the moment, but it was. There's something, I guess, maybe ironic about her. Who's been trying to kill Janice this whole time ended up dying.

Jess:

By being hit by a bus, the way she was Just being stepped off a curb. Yeah, and you not expected it in that moment? Yeah, I don't know why that was funny. I also like I don't know.

Niq:

Like at that point, like I'm specifically rooting for janice because I still have my issues with beth, like, yes, beth is like helping him, like because actually, before she goes back to england, she helps him solve another mystery of a man who disappeared. And his daughter and his wife come to the prison and they're like, oh, he just disappeared and it was so mysterious and we can't figure it out. And so she helps him solve that, that mystery, which was where the wife killed him. And she's like why would the wife, like, if she knows that she killed him, why would she like come to you and ask for help? He was like, well, she actually didn't. It was like the daughter. The daughter was the one who actually was like asking for help, she was just along for the ride. But so she actually helps him solve that murder before going back to england. And he sends her back to england with instructions and with a private investigator to help find janice. But I'm never at any point rooting for beth, I'm only rooting for janice morag.

Jess:

isag is another killer. Oh, not killer, she's a criminal. She breaks into houses.

Niq:

She does break into houses, but I feel like that's still to me, makes her a private investigator. Every time I see a private investigator, I break into houses.

Jess:

Private investigating for him. She's a robber.

Niq:

Is she just a robber? Look, I'm going to look now.

Jess:

I also like.

Niq:

They just refer to her as an acquaintance. I don't know. She didn't give private investigator vibes, she did.

Jess:

She did Intentionally. So Again, she manipulates situations too, because she presents to Beth as a cop. Initially he's in a car, he's going to pick you up, and then she is investigating or helping him do the legwork of the stuff that he can't physically do. So yeah, she definitely presents as a PI, but she makes it very clear that one don't get attached to this man. He has no moral values. And two, I am a criminal. She says several times, I'm a housebreaker. So Morag is very clear about who she is. But yeah, she's doing this investigation, but it's almost kind of like for fun.

Niq:

So what was interesting about Morag versus Beth? Beth says that she's disgusted by Jefferson and she doesn't like him. But you very much see the admiration that she has for him. When it comes to Morag, even though she works with him, you can very much see the disdain that she has for him. She works with him but you can tell she's kind of also grossed out by the thought of him. I think that Beth is pretending that she's kind of also grossed out by the thought of him. You know, and I think that beth is pretending that she's like no, I see who he really is and I, I know, I, I know he's a problem, but I don't believe it. She has like that. There's this look when she talks about him and when she's around him where you could tell she she is very fascinated and she's very enamored with him she is, but they're kind of similar in that way, her and the professor, because it's the same thing.

Jess:

Like you guys both chose to center your lives around crime. You know what I mean. You're not criminals, but you're fascinated with crime and how they happen, Right, but then he's now a criminal, but like he did not, you know, like I said, he didn't spend most of his life. Most of his life he was a professor, right, but of criminology you know. So same thing. She's a writer, but she just has a column, is the word I was looking for.

Niq:

Her column is about crime so do you think he's fascinated with her too? You think he's fascinated with the journalist?

Jess:

yeah, I think so anybody that he can kind of dissect and kind of figure out, like where their moral standing is, like that's what I think that fascinates him. But Anybody that he can kind of dissect and kind of figure out where their moral standing is, that's what I think fascinates him. But also that he sees her more than she sees herself in this moment.

Niq:

OK. So now I have another thing I want to talk about. So when the show first starts, jefferson is very much talking about how he's on death row and he deserves it and how he needs to pay for his crime by dying. And he says stuff about like I don't want to die, but I need to die, I should die. And then when he gets his death row date, he immediately starts pulling strings so that he doesn't actually have to die.

Jess:

But he doesn't. That's not why he's pulling the strings. That's what it seems like, but think about't. That's not why he's pulling the strings. That's what it seems like, but think about it he's. He pulls those strings and he makes it seem like it's to move his death row Because he knows that the warden wants him to advocate for himself. Right, so he gets everybody to go along with it, but really what he wants is his ex-father in law, ex-father-in-law, who is involved in some kind of criminal syndicate to send his goons to the house to go get Janice.

Niq:

So you don't think he. So he never intended to like.

Jess:

It is all so he can move those chess pieces, but he's resigned himself. He does say he doesn't want to die, and I believe he doesn't want to die, but he's resigned himself. He does say he doesn't want to die, and I believe he doesn't want to die, but he believes he deserves to die. So he's resigned himself that he's going to die. But this is his last sort of chip and he's going to use it to solve this case. Yeah, because he's still trying to solve as many cases as he can before death. He does not genuinely do things that are going to move back his death date. He just makes it seem like he does, so he can get his actual agenda done.

Niq:

Also, I never understood why the warden felt like he should try to advocate for himself. Like you know, a warden Right.

Jess:

But I think the warden sees what he does in this and solving these cases as atonement, like he sees value in him being around us because he solves these cases that are really difficult for other people to solve. He sees things that people can't see. He gives people in some cases what is it Closure, I guess To know like what happened to their family and loved ones. He figures out crimes and that kind of stuff. So I think the warden sees value in what he does and doesn't want him to die. And I think the warden misunderstands what he does as somehow like as atonement, like as he's getting better morally.

Niq:

he's not he's just good at it. Do you think part of the reason why the the warden sees it that way is because he is a white man of similar age and social stature?

Jess:

I mean that definitely does like yeah, because he is a white man of similar age and social stature. I mean that definitely is like yeah, because he's definitely not going to try to, even if Dylan Dylan is not rehabbable, but like he would never do this for Dylan if Dylan was the same person, right? But I don't think it's just that. I do think. I think he is not a traditional warder in the sense of I think all these criminals are bad, they should rot here forever. I think that he I think that the warden is motivated by he does see him as redeeming himself. You know what I mean? I think, yeah, I do think he sees him as redeeming himself and so he's like no, but you actually are doing the work and you're redeeming yourself, so you should have a second chance.

Niq:

I think that the only reason why he feels like he should have a second chance is because he can relate to him. I feel like if Jefferson was like an Asian man, I don't think he would be able to see. I don't think he would see the second. I just think that he gives him way too much grace, way too much understanding and way too much benefit of the doubt that I just don't see other people get. Even if it was a woman, I don't even know if he would see it the same way.

Jess:

I don't think that that's the only reason. I definitely think that that's a factor, but I don't think that's the only reason. I do think that he sees what he does as some sort of atonement and some evidence of progress, of him getting better. Now, if he was black, white Asian I'm like black, asian or a woman he wouldn't even look for. It is what I think. It is more so than anything. But if, if, if, if. If Jefferson was Dylan and still a white man, then no, I don't think the warden would. I think the warden does believe in redemption, right for certain you understand what I mean, right?

Niq:

But see, because I agree with you that I don't think Jefferson's character is like sorry for what he did or his morals and values have changed. I think he's bored and those cases fascinate him, but I think the warden is seeing something that is not there, because it's very greasy for him to put himself in those shoes, which is why I'm like that's the only reason.

Jess:

I do think that the warden Believes in redemption. I think that he's not just like a punishment only type of warden. But Does all those things play a factor? Because they always do. I just don't think he would look for it In someone who wasn't a white man. But I do think, just don't think like he would look for it in someone who wasn't a white man. But I do think that, like I don't think like he would just give a pass to any white man. I think he sees redemption and I think he sees value in what he does.

Niq:

So yeah, I'm just like hmm, what an interesting prison, what an interesting prison this is. You know it is.

Jess:

But I thought I'm not like you know not that I like or advocate for the prison system, but I don't think that every single person in the prison system is like the evil. You know, like I think there are some people who do think like you know you go in there and try to make a difference and that they're like. You know you try to get the people who can to redeem themselves. I think there are people like that.

Niq:

I definitely agree, but I don't know about the head cutter. I don't know. You cut somebody's head off and you're also saying, oh, there's context that you're missing, but I'm also not willing to give you that context. I don't see it, even though I see how they made his character very likable. Like I said, he's very charismatic that goes a long way with people.

Jess:

It does Right or wrong and I think that is part of what the show is saying, like the charisma of both Jefferson and Dylan go a long way with a lot of people, but they're not redeemable Right, they're not.

Niq:

They're not Even like how Dylan talks about how he used the fact that he was like a Buddhist, like to like game the system so he couldn't like be executed, which I didn't understand fully because I'm like you're telling me they still haven't found like a Buddhist. That could I?

Jess:

think they just stopped trying. I think he's got caught up in the system and again he's made himself of use, you know. So they almost to me like the warden where he sees all this redemption, to your point where he sees all this redemption and atonement in Jefferson. He just kind of uses Dylan as a tape recorder, almost like an object.

Niq:

He does, yes, and also as a little student that he can teach about things. I'm talking about the warden. Oh yeah, no, no.

Jess:

I think Jefferson and Dylan have a friendship.

Niq:

Jefferson's also discussing about a friendship because he knows Dylan is not redeemable, but at the same time they're fascinated with each other yeah, but yeah, I agree that the warden just uses dylan the warden is like no, he's an object, he's a glorified tape recorder which is so interesting, because he's like a black man and he just sees him as an object, which is, once again, more reason why, just like the warden character annoys me. Like I understand without him, like there is no story, because he allows all the stuff to happen. But I'm just like that is very it. Just you are on his cell, right. I'm like this is crazy. It's very crazy. But I do like this show because they like it makes you think about morality, be able to have a conversation about morality, but it's not preachy and there's a lot of open-endedness. You know, if there's a lot of, okay, what would I do if I was this person in the situation? What would I do if I was this person in the situation? It there's a lot to think about and there's a lot. You know, there's a lot of fat to chew in this show and I like that and I think that we could get more.

Niq:

Sometimes I feel like shows that want to like give you questions and things to think about, they get like so esoteric they forget to actually be entertaining. Like I don't know, have you ever seen the show the OA? No, like I don't know. Have you ever seen the show the OA. No, I want to tell you, I've tried to watch the show so many times. Yeah, I can't get through it. It's just weird for weird sake. And now maybe you guys, if you guys out there like to see something different, like convince me that I need to watch it because I can't make it through a few episodes. And so it's like I like when TV tries to be different, I like when when TV poses questions and you know, but at the same time you still have to have a level of entertainment. You can't be so like theoretical or so up in the clouds that like I'm just like, oh, I don't care.

Niq:

Right now, the most complicated show that I have ever watched and still currently watching, I'm watching a show with my husband and it's called dark and it's in it's. So it's like Germany, like in the like 80s and the 50s and the 30s and then in the future, and it involves like families that overlap. But these characters all look so similar because, like it's a small town, town in Germany, there's just not a lot of diversity. There's. There is no diversity and everybody looks so similar.

Niq:

It is so hard for me and my husband to follow and we're like it's a German show that I had to go online and like, look at the online, like family trees, and so the show in itself is good and the show in itself is entertaining and I don't think it's meant to be as complicated as it is. I think it's complicated for me as I'm an American. As it is, I think it's complicated for me as I'm an American and so I'm used to more diversity in the way that they look here Caucasian people. They still look very different. It's a huge country we live in. There's just a huge variety and in this show show, everybody looks like they could be related and it is just so hard.

Niq:

It's hard to tell the characters apart and here's the funny thing like when they do present day and when they do the 80s, everything looks the same, like the clothes, like they're like. Oh yeah, look that those clothes look like they're from the 80s and I'm like, I feel like they look like what y'all have on now. Like it just. It's just not drastically once it goes past the 80s, like once it's like in the 50s and, I think, like the 30s, like that. Okay, yes, it's very clear it's a different time period, but the 80s and the present day and then the future all looks a little too similar to me.

Niq:

They're aging up characters and I'm like you as a child, you couldn't be any of those people as an adult. I don't know, I don't see the correlation. It's a great show. I just wish I had like okay, so do you know, like when you watch football and they have like a telestrator, they like they circle and they draw lines. I would love to watch the show while they have that commentary going over everybody need name tags, young and old, not just, but it like you need more than a name tag.

Niq:

You also like 1930s, veronica, because it needs to say, like right, it needs to say charlotte, daughter of so-and-so, because it's just like they all stay in the same town. So it's like the grandfather married this one and then they had a kid, and then they had a kid with their next door neighbor. And so I'm going to tell you, because I know you're not going to ever watch this show, never am I. Ever, in present day, a little boy gets lost. You find out that he goes back in time and he ends up growing up in the 80s and fathering, and then marrying and fathering a child from the. That's in the present day.

Niq:

Like that's what I'm saying, like they're like, oh, this guy, this little boy, he disappeared and. But you come to find out like it's this, this, this guy, like it is his dad, his dad kills himself, like right at the beginning of the show, and you find out that his dad the whole time has been the little boy that ends up disappearing, because he went to the 80s and then grew up and got adopted. And I'm telling you, this show is wild, it's very I, and I don't say stuff like this often. I would love a US version Because it would be so much easier for me to follow. To pull apart yes.

Jess:

I would say for the most part they do a good. Well, I'll say now, they did not do such a good part in like 10, 15 years ago, but they do a lot better job now of matching the children to the adults. When you have to have a depiction of children and adults Because I watched a few shows recently I was like, oh no, I clearly know.

Niq:

I do think they try to do a better job. But this is just Listen. You can only do so much when there's like three faces in the town. You know what I'm saying? I'm trying tell my hair color because I swear the child version will have one color hair and then the adult version has a different color hair. Also, there are certain hair colors I can't tell. I don't understand when someone says, oh, that person is strawberry blonde or dirty blonde. I don't know what that is. I don't know what it is.

Jess:

I don't know the nuances in the hair colors enough like I need it to be dramatic if we say 613 or 1B, right, I would know that better these nuances, I'm not gonna, I Right.

Niq:

I wouldn't know that better. These nuances I can't pick up on these nuances. So we had to watch season one twice and now we're on season two. But we have to go so slow. We have to watch an episode and then dissect it and then figure it out, but the show is still good. I like this. The show is still good. You like this, the show is still good. You know, I love sci-fi and it's very trippy. I don't think that they could really it would be hard to like do a version in the US because, like there's like specific German history. I mean, I guess they could just do.

Jess:

They would do an American version, yeah.

Niq:

Identical anyway. They could just do. They would do a american version. Yeah, identical anyway. Yeah, yeah, like it. It's interesting, it really is. It's like the most, it's the hardest like show I've had to understand. Because I'm like it's very common for me to watch shows from other countries, you know, and like. This is the first time where I've like really struggled to like follow a storyline and I'm someone who I honestly prefer, when I watch shows from other countries, to watch it in the native language and just read the subtitles, because the acting is better. Sometimes with the voiceover acting it's not that it's not as good voiceover acting goes to soap opera very quickly and so it's just better for me to see they hear the people.

Niq:

There's a huge difference when someone is acting in their native language and you just have to read the subtitles. For me personally, it's a better experience. I prefer that, yeah.

Jess:

It does stick me out sometimes. That's probably why I can watch stuff in other languages with subtitles. I watch stuff in other languages with subtitles. Well yeah, I can watch it in other languages with subtitles. Sometimes voiceovers are what it is. That kind of takes me out. I'm like this with audiobooks too. If the voice is annoying, I'm out.

Niq:

I told you I had to DNF a book because one of the narrators was terrible and it was grinding. Oh, it was the worst. It was the worst experience in the world and I have. There are certain audiobooks that I I listened to just because of the narrator. Like neil schusterman is one of my favorite authors, but the reason, one of the reasons why I love his books so much is he has the best narrator.

Jess:

He's got a good narrator, I will listen to it. I will listen to whatever you, if you have a nice voice and you have the right amount of drama, but not too much.

Niq:

I don't know, I think about this book often, not that I can't remember the name of the book, but like the first book was really good, the second book was terrible, but it was that. Now I'm like, did y'all not listen to that narration before you released that book? What was going? I I I still like it blows my mind. And it was like there's because this book is like an on like there's like six or seven main characters, so there's multiple narrators in this book, so this is one narrator who's narrating one person out of all of them. It was enough for me not to finish the book. It was that jarring and uncomfortable and that hard to listen to and I really wish I could get my money back from audio. I wonder if I could ask for from Audible. Can you return an Audible Because it was terrible.

Jess:

I've never tried to return Audible, but I want to find out.

Niq:

Let me know, I'll let you know. But I know we got kind of off topic, but we'll fix it in post, right? But thank you guys, so much. So the next episode we're going to continue our discussion of Insight man. We're going to actually kind of talk more about the plot. I know we were kind of very vague about the plot but we're going to get more deep into the plot in the next episode Because I just feel like there were so many opportunities to fix this situation and it just seemed like anytime they were at a crossroad, they chose the wrong. They chose yeah.