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• Niq & Jess • Episode 17

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Exploring the deep influences of toxic relationships and family dynamics on self-esteem, we reflect on how these patterns shape our adult lives. The episode highlights the importance of recognizing unhealthy cycles and offers practical insights for breaking free.

• Examining the impacts of toxic relationships on personal identity 
• Discussing how family dynamics can reinforce self-esteem issues 
• The role of parental influence in shaping adult relationships 
• Exploring the nature of brother-sister dynamics and loyalty 
• Highlighting the importance of friendship and community support 
• Acknowledging the challenges of establishing healthy boundaries 
• Understanding emotional dependency and its origins 
• Strategies for fostering self-love and acceptance 
• Empowering listeners to reclaim their narratives and identities 


Contact Niq & Jess

Speaker 1:

Hi guys, welcome back On today's episode. We're going to be discussing how to die alone. I'm your host, nick.

Speaker 2:

I'm Jess.

Speaker 1:

I'm really excited about today's episode because we're going to be talking about relationships, and I don't know if I've had so many toxic relationships.

Speaker 2:

Say that again. You don't know if you've had so many toxic relationships. I'm going to say it again you don't know if you've had so many toxic relationships I've never seen a show that has had so many toxic relationships crammed in.

Speaker 1:

It's mind-blowing yeah. So in the first episode we kind of talked about Melissa's self-esteem problems, how she doesn't feel like she's worthy of love, and so my first question would be how does somebody get that way? And then my answer would be her mother. Yeah her mama, her mama also, but I feel like he learned that from the mom.

Speaker 2:

Oh, absolutely Absolutely. So, yeah, definitely. Her family of origin from the mom. Oh, absolutely Absolutely. So, yeah, definitely her family of origin, her mom, who seems like she has spent her entire life, melissa's entire life, breaking her self-esteem down to be as low as it is, because if she has always talked to her like she talks to her as an adult, I'm sure hearing those kind of things, as a child has probably been, was probably really hard. And then she set up this dynamic because I really think the brother and her relationship and why a big the mom is the reason why it's so toxic and she really kind of plays a big role in that dysfunction. And then, on top of that, there's something going on with the father that they're not clear about. So we know the father is dead, the brother has a different opinion of the father, but Melissa also says at some point like you got his good years.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

So making it seem like there was some kind of change, you know, by the time she came along to, where he was not as good or present as father, but it's not clear that like was he there and just a bad person Did he leave. You know, we just know he died when I think I was about 14. The brother was about 14. Not Alex, alex, I'm sorry. Alex is the boyfriend. What's the brother's name?

Speaker 1:

Brian.

Speaker 2:

Brian when Brian was about 14.

Speaker 1:

Is that right, though Is his name Brian.

Speaker 2:

That feels right.

Speaker 1:

It does feel right, but I've been wrong before. Names is not your strong point, it's not, and I lean into it. So that what she said about the father when she said, oh, you got his good years For me, he was just like the first man who did, she say, didn't want me, and I'm like yikes, and so I always I have a ton of questions, a ton of threads, I guess, to pull.

Speaker 1:

So the mom made a comment to her brother about how the father was not a good man. Did she explain exactly in what way she felt like he wasn't a good man?

Speaker 2:

No, that's what I'm saying. Everybody kind of alludes to the fact that there was something wrong, something going on with the father, but they never said specifically what it was.

Speaker 1:

I mean definitely. I think there's alcoholism, because she was saying that he was a drunk. I didn't miss that. I thought she said when she. I thought she said you got the best of him. By the time I came along he was drunk. And then she made the comment about he was the first man. Maybe I made that up.

Speaker 2:

I missed that part completely. I don't remember that.

Speaker 1:

I don't know, maybe I just was taking that. He was an alcoholic, I don't know where. I got that. From now I'll be honest and say sometimes I get feelings from things and they're not true. But now I have to go back and watch the scene again because I thought she made reference to him being drunk. I think so, brother is Brian.

Speaker 2:

Brother's name is Brian. I think so. Brother's name is Brian. Brother's name is Brian.

Speaker 1:

I was right, so you have. I wonder if part of the mom treating the daughter badly has to do with the dad. And I say that is because if, according to what Melissaissa said, the father was better before she came along. You know, like sometimes, like you have another child and then things go south and the parent will take it out on that child as if it was the child's fault. I wonder if there was some of that, like their marriage got worse after she was born, not necessarily because of her, but just because that's how things go sometimes. Yeah, mom took it out on her and criticized her. You know, you obviously see, her mom is a boy, mom.

Speaker 2:

And that's the thing. I don't think that that is possible, but I don't think we have any evidence of that yet. What I think is more clear and present is that the mom has an issue with women. You know what I mean. She has a very kind of it seems like old school understanding of women and men and what men's role are, because I think she probably again alludes to, not directly states, but she kind of put him in the place of the like he kind of made her son her husband.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Even the way she talks to him about how he needs to tighten it up, it's you know he has to be the leader of the family. No, he doesn't want to, but he has to. It's his job. No, it was very much giving like, oh, you are my new husband energy which, when women do that, it bothers me so much.

Speaker 2:

And also even though I know there's racial elements too at play, but that's also why she wasn't going to like his wife regardless.

Speaker 1:

Oh, she wasn't, she wasn't going to like his wife, regardless, he's married to a white woman in the story and I think because he's married to a white woman, it makes it easier for her to say, oh, I don't like her. But if he was married to a black woman, she was not going to like him either. It would just be, she would just have less of a standing Not that she has a standing because his wife is white, but, you know, it gives her a little bit of cover to say, oh well, we're just so different and why didn't he choose someone that looked like me? And you know, know, you can say all those things that don't matter, because who you're your child marries has absolutely nothing to do with you, and I think it's weird to be like, oh, marry somebody like me, that's creepy that is creepy, but yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I think she has a bunch of toxic um stuff about like male and female relationships and dynamics. Um pushes on melissa, on both her children, honestly, okay, the reason why I say this is because when her and I'm assuming that that's her sister, the blonde lady at the thanksgiving I'm assuming that's her sister because I think that's their um when they are talking to and melissa's trying to talk about her career, she and she's like they're very clearly belittling her. Um, uh and she's I fell into, I went to a management program. She goes oh, I thought you fell into a man. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Like her, having or not having a boyfriend is the most important part of their life. And when women do that, that's usually because you have these really old school kind of you know toxic beliefs about men and women. And then they're harping on her weight the way that they do, you Harping on her weight the way that they do. You know. Again, that's about what is traditionally attractive and you being able to appeal to an attractive man. I think it's more than that. So I don't think I don't think any female that came out of her.

Speaker 1:

She was going like I'm going to say this Even if her and Alex were still together because Alex is very well put together, you know he will present well to a family. Because Alex is very well put together, you know he will present well to a family. If she bought Alex a Thanksgiving dinner, her mom would have still treated her like crap, probably all up in Alex's face and but she still would have treated her like so. Even having a man would not have saved her because her mom does not like her no, but I'm saying she does not like women.

Speaker 2:

You know what I mean. So I completely agree with everything you just said. But again, that's these weird. Does not like her. No, but I'm saying she does not like women. You know what I mean. So I completely agree with everything you just said, but again.

Speaker 2:

That's these weird. Like you could be a woman and still be misogynist Absolutely. And so to me, that's why I see it Like, yeah, no, if she had a man she would still hate her, but if she had Alex and she was still plus size, she still would be in on. You're going to lose that man. Whatever, it's a vehicle to just hate on this woman. If she actually lost weight, it would be like you're too skinny, you look sickly. She has an issue with women.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and that's really sad. It's really sad. A lot of women I've heard them say that their mom was their first bully.

Speaker 2:

Mm. Hmm, this is a thousand percent true in this case.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it is. And so she has a toxic relationship with her, her mom, and it feeds into a toxic relationship with her brother, because she doesn't, you know, she feels like you know, he puts her down the way that the mom does. The mom hits the two of them against each other, I feel like, and then, kind of like, steps back and then, when things get too chaotic, I feel like she steps in and tries to pretend that she's the referee. But it's like you started the fight, you absolutely started the fight. You steadily talk about how wonderful he is and how terrible she is, and then, when they go at it, then you're like, oh, you can't, don't be like that, don't do that, you know. Yeah, her brother, I'm trying to, he triggered you were talking about triggering.

Speaker 2:

He triggered the hell out of me.

Speaker 1:

I want to be. I have some empathy for the brother in some respects. Those respects are I'm going to say this his father dying was very traumatic on him and it's very obvious he did not get the help that he needed and he still is not over that no, he's not his mom is inappropriate with him.

Speaker 1:

She's made him her husband you know what I mean, and it made him feel like he's responsible for everybody in the family, and I don't think that that's fair, and I don't think if he was a brother, if he was a girl or boy, I don't think that would have been fair. No, now I'm gonna, I, but the. What is funny to me, though, is the position that he is in in his family is typically the position that you see the oldest daughter in. It is In.

Speaker 2:

Black families.

Speaker 1:

I will say yes, I'm sorry, in Black families the position of being the caretaker and the keeper and the fixer and the saver in black families is typically the oldest daughter and it doesn't create issues. It does create issues it like, but I feel like we have been trained as black women to bear it in silence. We're not allowed to use that as an excuse, and I think he uses that position that he's been put in in his family as an excuse to be out of control and to be mean and to be aggressive and to be rude.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, whereas I have empathy for him, it only can go so far, because I'm just like you are. At this point, I feel like you're college educated. You keep talking about how you have a financial success. Why are you not in therapy?

Speaker 2:

Well, I also. While that is true, the mother has put him in this position. She has definitely made him her husband and he does help his mother and his sister. At times, I still think he overplays his hand. At the end of the day, like the most of the stuff that you are complaining about is regular everyday stuff. That is also the result of your choices. You are married. It doesn't seem like your wife works. That's the decision that y'all made together. So then the financial piece of it being on you again, that's the decision that y'all made together. You are choosing not to share your struggles with your wife. You know, even though she's there every five seconds, asking you what's wrong, trying to coddle you, you know you still won't open up and share with her and spread that. And then you keep saying because you guys are my dependents, you know he said that line and I'm like, so you can't have a conversation with them?

Speaker 1:

Right. That is something you made up, sir, I think his he's not willing to stand up to his mom.

Speaker 2:

He's not. But you don't have to stand up. Your wife could be your confidant. What the heck did you marry her for?

Speaker 1:

and she's more than willing to be that confidant she is and cause she sees him breaking down and she's trying to do stuff like giving him breathing exercises and she, honestly, is very yeah, she is trying to help, she's very understanding and she is begging him to open up, but he has his mom in his head who told him to his face when he got aggressive and she's like it doesn't matter how much you have on you, close your mouth, don't let you. Don't let it out. That's a good point. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

That is, but also like, and I think overall his responsibilities are so basic, you know what I mean Like you are a married man with a stay-at-home wife. Big whoop, that's most, not most, but that's a lot of married men. Why are you acting like you are lifting mountains on your shoulders? You decided to have a wife. That doesn't work.

Speaker 1:

Right and also taking care, because I can tell that he does not take care of his mom completely financially.

Speaker 2:

No, he doesn't. He doesn't take care of either of them, but he acts like he does.

Speaker 1:

He does, and I'm like that once again, having older parents, it is very normal that you have to assist them with different things. That it is very normal that you have to assist them with different things. That, once again, is very normal and that's just a part of being in a family. As your parents age, they need more and more. But what he does not do is he does not put in boundaries, no, and then he complains about them, because even with his sister, you know, he complains and says oh, you know what? What you're on my family plan on my phone and you only call me when you need something. And like then he like she offered to babysit for him and he's like I would never trust you. And which is so interesting to me because when she came over for thanksgiving, his daughter is like you're my favorite person, I'm so thankful for you. Here's a gift. No one else got a gift from her, you know. So it's it's very obvious that she has a good relationship. She has a good relationship with his wife.

Speaker 1:

You know, like I think, your sister is stealing money from us. She stole your, she stole your social security card. She still, like, has a good relationship. So but he.

Speaker 1:

But that's not when he talks to her, that's not how he speaks to her that's not how he speaks to her no and so, instead of just putting boundaries in place and he could easily say listen, you know, I have my own family, I have a wife, I have kids. My wife does not work, I'm taking care of her financially, I can no longer lend you money just a boundary I need to set in place. He doesn't say that, no, he gives her whatever money she's asking for, when she's asking. I don't even know how much it is, I don't feel like it's a whole lot.

Speaker 1:

I don't either, but you know, hey, I don't know. But it's very apparent that he's helped her out financially in the past. Instead of just putting a boundary in place by saying, hey, I can't be your first phone call because I have a lot going on in my life, I can't lend you money, instead of saying those things, he will do things for her and then throw them in her face. They're going to feel terrible about it. I don't like that.

Speaker 2:

That's what I don't like. Instead of saying you got three months to get off my family plan. You know what I mean. That's easy. She got a full-time job Even though she doesn't make a lot of money. You can afford your cell phone bill.

Speaker 1:

I also don't understand. I'm like or pay part of the bill for him, so he will let you stay on the family plan because obviously it's a discount the more phones are on there. Why are you not sending him money per month so he sees you as a benefit, being on his family plan instead of a problem? And I know you don't even have to open your mouth. I know you. That would be the world's worst thing for you to be on somebody else's bill. You know like I. I know how.

Speaker 2:

That's not where I was going to go, even if she was doing that even if she was doing that, he still would complain that she's on there, because the idea of who she is and who she and you know to him, like his construction of her in his mind, I think nothing changes. She's a bum, she can't do anything. So I think even if she wasn't, him money, um, he was still complaining. But she's still on my family plate. You know what I mean. That's what he wants. He wants to be able to complain, he wants to do the woe is me thing and he wants to do I'm so successful, you're such a bum. So no, the answer is to get off his family plate. And now we're talking about me. I will never ask you for anything.

Speaker 2:

I know absolutely I will never ask you for anything. I know.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, I will never. And so who I am. I would have gone no contact with both of them and I know that's hard because she loves her niece and nephew and she even likes his wife. But I would be permanently no contact with the mom and I would be no contact with him for long enough for him to understand you're not going to talk to me any kind of way. I'm getting my life together. I will reach back out when I feel like we are on even keel and we can come together as adults. I don't need anything from you, you don't need anything from me, and we can see where we are at.

Speaker 1:

I think unless he gets some help, though, he's still going to see her negatively well then, I mean the no contact stands you know what I'm saying like it can only work if it's going to work, but I just don't think that anybody I don't care who they are is guaranteed access to you no, but even the wife talked about, even with the wife knowing that she stole the social security number, still said I don't like the way he talks to you Because it's abusive.

Speaker 1:

Let's call it what it is it's abusive. And he feels like you know what? I have so much pressure on me. To relieve that pressure, I'm going to belittle you and be aggressive to you and I'm like. That doesn't work like that. You know what. You know what.

Speaker 2:

I'm speculating here, hard speculation, but I wonder if that's how the dad treated the mom and the mom doesn't have a problem with him, because they keep saying the dad is bad. But I'm not really clear on whether or not. I don't think the dad left, but I'm just not sure. But I'm wondering if the dad belittled and all this kind of stuff and made the mom feel bad. And the mom doesn't have an issue with brian because brian doesn't treat her that way, but she's okay with her treating melissa that way I don't know.

Speaker 1:

Because in the kitchen she's like oh, you lost your cool. You know you're not allowed to do that. You need to keep it tight and button it up. And then she's like go take this pot to your sister. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Any, other time he's talking down to her, she has no problem. But as soon as Melissa claps back, she's sneering at her. She's looking at negativity. So I don't really think she has a problem with him talking to her. Cash crazy. She got upset because he lost his temper and started yelling.

Speaker 1:

Yes, okay, I agree with that. I agree that it was. She wants him to keep a certain perception. So, yeah, he can talk crazy to her. She doesn't want him yelling and screaming because that makes him look bad, not that it makes Melissa feel bad.

Speaker 2:

And that's why I'm wondering if that's who the dad was to her and why he's a bad guy.

Speaker 1:

I don't know. I would love more information.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we need more information. I told you I'm speculating hard. This does not happen in a vacuum. You know what I mean. Like these kind of like. You know this comes from somewhere Right, and so the dad was a bad person because he treated me like he treated Melissa, but I don't care how you treat Melissa, right?

Speaker 1:

the dad was a screamer and a yeller, so don't scream and yell at her. You can still dog her out, but don't raise your voice right, which is wild. Yeah, I really hope that we get more. I would love a daddy.

Speaker 2:

I would love a daddy flashback. Who would play the dad? Who should play the dad?

Speaker 1:

Who would play the dad. It depends on how they want to go. Do you know? Is his name Tim Reed? He would be the dad from Sister, Sister, oh, okay.

Speaker 2:

That would be interesting, especially when you play a deadbeat, because he's usually, like you know, kind of in more refined roles, like you know, like he was the straight and sister sister right, but I once again, I think it's like perception versus reality.

Speaker 1:

I think he would look like that. It would make them look like they had, they were such a great family, but then behind closed doors yeah, he's a mess screaming and talking down to her.

Speaker 2:

I kind of like it. Yeah, to me that's a good choice, okay.

Speaker 1:

What do you think would play the dad?

Speaker 2:

I feel like everybody that's popping up in my head is too old to play the dad, because I'm like Danny Glover, but he's way too, you know. But that's a flashback to the Color Purple.

Speaker 1:

Didn't he just pass away? No, that was the dad from Good Times, edward James Olmos. No, that's not his name. What's the dad from Good Times?

Speaker 2:

name Girl, I don't know, james.

Speaker 1:

Earl, you know what? Never mind, I'm not good with names.

Speaker 2:

Lawrence Fishburne.

Speaker 1:

Lawrence Fishburne was not the daddy from Good Times.

Speaker 2:

No, I'm saying as a suggestion.

Speaker 1:

You don't think he's too powerful for that role? He was in Black-ish. He was in Black-ish, he was the daddy of most, and when I said powerful I don't mean like he's too big of a star. I guess. When I think about Lawrence Fishburne, immediately I go to like what's love got to do with it, Ike Turner and I'm like we don't need all of that energy, Like that's a bit too much for me.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

I need to be toned down, and so that's why I'm like ooh Lawrence Fishburne.

Speaker 2:

Lawrence Whitaker. I don't know if he would do TV, but Forrest Whitaker.

Speaker 1:

I forgot Forrest Whitaker existed. And Hold on, you know what? Never mind.

Speaker 2:

I'm not going to let that intrusive thought out. I know what it is, but hold it back. But okay, yeah, that's my vote. Forest Whitaker is my vote.

Speaker 1:

Man. Once again I almost feel like Forest Whitaker is too much for the part, because like Last King of Scotland, like that's a lot of energy.

Speaker 2:

I think he can temper his energy. I think he's an excellent actor, so like it doesn't matter, he's going to body whatever role it is, and he kind of looks like he could fit into their family too, you know, and so I guess that's what I meant by like Laurence Fishburne.

Speaker 1:

I'm like, yes, they are Forrest Whitaker and Laurence Fishburne are like good actors and so I'm like, ooh, if they have to play an abusive person, I'm scared, I don't know, ike.

Speaker 2:

Turner. I can't handle another, honestly, another Laurence Fishburne. What am I saying? I'm like oh no, you know what. I cannot watch that movie as an adult. And again, I watched it so many times as a child. Should not have watched that as a child. I cannot watch that movie as an adult.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to be real. At the stage of life that I am in, I cannot really watch a woman being physically abused or physically assaulted. I can't do it. Physically abused or physically assaulted, I can't do it. I have to move past it, fast forward. I honestly try to avoid it completely if I can. It's just too much. It's too much for me. I feel like I've seen enough with innovation and trauma and abuse. Once again, the movies we were watching as kids, like the Color Purple, the Women of Brewster's Place why were we watching these movies as children? Are the movies great? They are.

Speaker 2:

I don't think our parents tippered what we watched.

Speaker 1:

I don't think they really thought psychologically all the way through.

Speaker 2:

Because, if you think about it, 80s, 90s yeah, there was no consideration for what we do in Psychologically Shattered no no, but like a lot of those movies, yeah, I'm like okay, I enjoyed them and I watched them over and, over and over again and to the point where most of them, I know them line by line. And now I cannot watch them as an adult, like I can't even watch the remake of Color Purple. I can't.

Speaker 1:

I have tried, I have tried and I'm like, even with you singing the fact that it's like a remake of the Broadway play and not of the original movie. I still can't do it and I don't know why. That hurts me a little bit because that movie was such a huge part of my childhood huge, huge part of my childhood, but Huge, huge part of my childhood. But I, just I am anti-Black trauma.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I don't completely get rid of it. Like I do have hard, I have issues with essay scenes. I can't do essay scenes anymore, but like I don't completely get, I just make sure I'm in a good enough mood to watch some stuff like that.

Speaker 2:

But it just doesn't seem to like I've caught it and I think you know if I watch it I'm gonna have to watch it with people like you know in my in my area is a group of people get together and watch movies and stuff like that, like we'll have a movie night, um, so I'm seeing, let me see if I can. Yeah, like you know, can we just have like a little impromptu one. I need some other people to watch this with.

Speaker 1:

It was hard, that Thanksgiving scene. It was really hard to watch because you really understand, start to understand why she really doesn't love herself.

Speaker 2:

That Thanksgiving episode yeah, that's another one that was emotionally hard to watch. To just watch her just be belittled and no matter what she does, it's never going to be good enough.

Speaker 1:

And I just want to be like girl just stop trying with these things you know, like, so, like now, going no contact is a really, really popular thing, like it's, it's, it's very like normalized to like put in those hard, firm boundaries. But if you think about it back in the day, there were always like people in the family that would just disappear and they said, oh well, they think that they're too good and they don't come around anymore. And I look like, oh no, they were the no contact pioneers.

Speaker 2:

They were, they were.

Speaker 1:

You don't understand, like oh no, that they were. You don't understand. That person was brave. They weren't selfish, they weren't sadistic, they were brave.

Speaker 2:

When you find out that story as to why they stopped, then you're like oh dang. Right you know what I mean.

Speaker 1:

I don't understand. I'm like girl. I would have went no contact. She already doesn't have anybody. That's true.

Speaker 2:

that makes sense it's complicated by the financial needs. She does have a financial need. She does. So. To completely go non-contact, especially with a brother, would be hard because, like she still, you know, she doesn't have herself together financially but do you think if she had herself together financially she would go no contact?

Speaker 1:

I don't think she would.

Speaker 2:

Only if it was coupled with therapy.

Speaker 1:

Because at this point she is so broken on the inside that the crumbs, the hint of love and connection would be enough for her, because she just doesn't have it.

Speaker 2:

She still wants to prove herself to them. She still wants to try to prove herself to them. So, yes, I don't think she's at that point, but I hope she gets there. Okay, but I do. Let's talk about Rory, because we haven't talked about her relationship. Oh, okay, yes, okay.

Speaker 1:

so Rory at the start of the show is her best friend, and so let's give a background on Rory. Rory's father is is he the president of the airport?

Speaker 2:

What is?

Speaker 1:

he the CEO of the airport. He's over JFK. He works at the airport like at a newsstand Rory does, to fulfill the requirements of his trust fund. He's 35. He's the same age as Melissa. He is homosexual and he kind of has like this attitude of you know, I'm free and I want to just party. I don't want to do anything serious. He's not serious about his career. He's not serious about you know his love life and he does not have a good relationship with his father. He's also adopted. He's Asian. He's not serious about you know his love life and he does not have a good relationship with his father.

Speaker 2:

He's also adopted. He's Asian. He's adopted by white Jewish parents.

Speaker 1:

Yes, so the first episode it starts out like it seems like, oh my God, these are best friends, they are two peas in a pod and the show starts on her birthday, right, so the day of her birthday they're supposed to go out like eat and karaoke, like they have. It sounds like they have a whole weekend plan, like watching the office or taking edibles, like they have a whole weekend plan. Um, but what it turns out is that, uh, rory ends up meeting a guy who they've been like seeing in the airport and kind of lusting over, and they all like, oh my God, he's so perfect. And Rory actually meets him and gets an opportunity to go out on a date with him or kind of like a hookup with him. And so he lies to Melissa and says, hey, I can't hang out with you for your birthday, I have to go to a fundraiser. And you know that leads to the events that lead to her actually getting hurt and ended up in the hospital actually dying Because she's by herself on her birthday putting together furniture.

Speaker 1:

That wasn't even the plan of what she was supposed to do. Buying the furniture was never the plan, it was just her making her feel putting together furniture. That wasn't even the plan of what she was supposed to do. Buying the furniture was never the plan, it was just her making her feel you know good about being alone on her birthday. So that's kind of Rory's background. And so Rory and the airport guy, like their hookup, actually turns into a relationship and I feel like that is why he switches up on Melissa.

Speaker 2:

Well, how do you feel he switches up?

Speaker 1:

when you say switches up, Okay, so Rory and Melissa they end up getting into a really, really bad fight. He is the person that she calls when she's in the hospital.

Speaker 1:

He does not answer her and so when they get back to work on Monday, she's not answering his phone calls. She's upset with him because she knows in her heart of hearts, when he gave that excuse, that he was like lying about. He apparently does that quite often. So they end up getting into a fight because she feels like he's not there for her and he feels like she wants too much from him. Basically.

Speaker 1:

But the my the way, the reason why I say that he switches up, is because they had a relationship dynamic that they both agreed upon. Was it necessarily healthy? No, it was not. But they both agreed to that relationship dynamic. And then you come to find out that, honestly, he was not really fulfilling the dynamic the way that he was supposed to be. But also I feel like all of a sudden now like oh, he has the potential for a boyfriend Now he just wants to be free and do whatever and he doesn't want her to rely on him in the way that they also, that they relied on each other. And I also feel like he's selfish and inappropriate. And I'll tell you why I feel like that after I give you the opportunity to talk, ok so I think the reason why it's not even that I disagree necessarily with what you said.

Speaker 2:

I think the reason why I see it differently is because this dynamic that they set up that they both set up was toxic and unhealthy from the beginning. So I see that this was always on a crash course from the beginning. I'm like this is going to crash. This is unsustainable because it is too much to have all your emotional needs met by one person and that's the dynamic that they set up with each other. And I think they both set it up when they were both in a really broken place. So it makes sense to me that once either person starts to come out of that broken place, that's going to fall apart, because it was unrealistic in the beginning.

Speaker 2:

I do think at some point that he fulfilled a lot of that and I feel like it's too much. It's too heavy because, while he did agree to it you know what I mean he still it's still. Melissa needs a lot, she needs a lot and she calls on him. I think too much. And I think she calls on him in times where it's inappropriate for her to call on him. He needs her emotionally. She needs him emotionally, financially you know what I mean socially Whereas she does not have anyone but him. He does have outside friends from her. He does have another social life, so he is not relying on her. I don't feel like he's relying on her as heavily as she's relying on him is it a social life or is it hookups?

Speaker 1:

whatever the reason why I say that is because she's like oh, you're ditching me for sex, which you shouldn't. Here's the thing. I personally, I think Rory is the worst. But the reason why I think Rory is the worst is because he, once he made an agreement that they were going to be each other's everything with the exception of sex, and when he, when he felt differently, he didn't tell her.

Speaker 2:

And again he's wrong for that. They have issues with communication, Do I think he's? I don't think he's irredeemable, you know. I think that they've been needed to have a conversation because this is unhealthy. I think he's been feeling that for a while before Bicostal Day. This has started to, because why? Because I think that's why his behavior started changing, Because it started changing before Bicostal Day, Because she was this is not the first time he's ditched her for dick and then and before, where they were always together, I think they spent a lot of time together. There was a switch that was slowly progressing, because I think the weight of being someone's everything was getting to be too much for him and again, he never communicated that. But neither of these people. We're not talking about emotionally healthy people. We're talking about two emotionally unhealthy people.

Speaker 1:

I think my issue is is he says stuff to her like I don't want you to replace me with lamar and somebody else. I don't remember the other person he named he's like don't don't, yeah, don't replace me with tamika and lamar.

Speaker 1:

But then, at the same time, you're saying I can't breathe because you want me to be your man. You know you want me to be your everything. When they laid in the bed together and she was explaining to him all of the reasons why she was going to break up with Alex, and he didn't say to her you know what? I think that you guys can work it out. You know, you just need to love yourself more and understand why you're so amazing. He would want to be with you. He says leave him alone. You shouldn't. You shouldn't seek out a relationship. Just have sex with random people and let me be everything else to you. Let me be your emotional person, you'll be my emotional person. We'll be everything to each other but sex. And then, all of a sudden, you're screaming in my face I'm not your man. Well, that's not what you said. They never should have made the agreement.

Speaker 2:

I agree, because the agreement was crazy to begin with it was unrealistic and once the weight of that was getting to be too much for him, yes, he should have said something. There's a lot of things that need to be said, like when he keeps canceling, she needs to call him out for that. There's a lot of things that need to be said. But I think you're dealing with two very emotionally unhealthy people in a friendship and there's a lot of things that they need to talk through that they don't that I don't think that either of them have the capacity or know how to talk through. But I think if they can get some good boundaries in place, I think that this can be a healthy friendship. I just don't think that it is right now.

Speaker 1:

There's also an imbalance of power in the relationship because he's a trust fund kid and she is dead broke. But then he would tell her hey, I don't feel comfortable with you doing this management program, because it makes me feel bad when you know she's already financially strapped and you say that you don't want her to be reliant on you.

Speaker 1:

But then you would also tell her oh, you know what, don't pursue something that would like financially help you, and to me that is the worst thing he did like to it of all the stuff that he did.

Speaker 2:

Telling her not to be a part of that management program because he has the issue with his dad is the worst thing that he did and it's out of touch. But he's out. He's out of touch because he's rich and he's never had to really deal with the stuff that she's dealing with. He does not have an understanding for that. I'm not saying that to excuse him, I just, you know, just to kind of explain. But to me that is the worst thing he did Because her not doing that management plan is not going to improve your relationship with your daddy at all. That just is holding, holding her back, Like. To me that's worse than all the other stuff.

Speaker 1:

He also, when he found out that she was in the hospital, he went around the airport and got her gifts, which means that not only did you ditch her on her birthday, you didn't get her a gift and then decided to like, throw something together quick. I'm just like you should shut up and get it. She doesn't think that she deserves anything. But if that were you, you would be pissed yeah, because a lotion wash like no.

Speaker 1:

Thank you that he got for free. Once again, once again, trust fund kid. You ditched me on my birthday and then I didn't didn't like respond when I was in the hospital.

Speaker 2:

How's he supposed to know that she's in the hospital? You don't like. It's like if you're genuinely busy sometimes you don't, you don't, you don't respond. I don't know why you're calling me.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and if you can't answer the phone, you are going to immediately text me. Hey, I got this and this you would. He's a terrible selfish person. I am happy that he found a relationship because I think he deserves to be loved and it's very obvious because he's made comments about his self-esteem and how he would never be able to get a man that's attractive or no one would want to be in a relationship with him, which is why I think he developed that you know just hook up culture, minded. I'm glad that he found a relationship. It seems like that guy is really good for him. Yeah, but it was like, oh, as soon as he got a role in a relationship, I feel like he immediately started to look down on melissa, like, and everybody he already he knows that's his, he knows how people treat her, especially like her family members and stuff.

Speaker 2:

And I feel like he started doing the same thing as soon as he got in that relationship and that's why I'm like oh, he switched up, like the way he was yelling at her, I think it was building and I think if he had had conversations about, like you know hey, I know we said this, but this is getting to be too much, I think.

Speaker 2:

What I see is, I think it was slowly building and then it exploded. And it exploded because, again, you don't know how to communicate and you don't know how to, you know, change rules that you know we all set up dynamics and then that changed. Like you know what I mean, like we've been friends for almost 30 years, dynamics have changed and they do change as we continue to grow, and but I don't think most people know how to have those conversations and how to do those, and that's it. And so that it builds up to the point where he explodes. And I just feel like I'm not saying that that's right or OK. I'm saying I see that a lot with people like you know, if you don't know how to communicate your feelings, now I'm mad about everything and I'm letting you have it for stuff 10 years ago that I should have said to you 10 years ago 10 years ago.

Speaker 1:

The thing about it is is like you feel like she's the worst person in the world because she did the management class after you asked her not to. But then, when she asked you to co-sign not pay to co-sign on a loan, you're like why would you do that? Why would you ask me? Well, because you are a trust fund kid and, for whatever reason, this loan means too much to me.

Speaker 2:

But you're like I feel like she was wrong.

Speaker 1:

It was a bit much, I wouldn't do it either. But once again, if me asking to co-sign on that loan was too much a bridge too far, you asking me not to take that management class was a bridge too far. And then he was devastatingly upset with her when he found out she did it anyway After refusing to do the loan.

Speaker 2:

I think that her asking for anybody to co-sign on $30,000 is crazy, I think that is crazy work. I don't care that he's rich. That's a lot to ask of your friend. It wouldn't work.

Speaker 1:

I don't care that he's rich. That's a lot to ask of your friend. It wouldn't be. It's not, I wouldn't do it either, but I feel like if he is asking her to put her life on hold, To me that's the worst thing that he did, the way he responded about that.

Speaker 2:

And again, it's equal. It's not women, not equally, but it still is unrealistic as well. It's unrealistic to say, hey, not to advance your career because my father recommended you and I'm kind of jealous.

Speaker 1:

I see it is the same. I see, like, if, if she, if he feels like she went a bridge too far asking him to co-sign on the loan, then you were too. You were too far, asking too far, but he still felt like she was so wrong, you know, even after. And I'm like, well, how is it that there's limits on what you're willing to do for her, but it doesn't seem to be limits on what you expect her to do for you? That's why I don't, I don't think that their friendship is necessary. I don't think that their friendship is necessary. I don't because, honestly, nobody has it necessary.

Speaker 2:

I think it's redeemable.

Speaker 1:

I want to say this her life started getting exponentially better once she stopped being friends with Rory, because she truly had to start from the ground up rebuilding friendships and finding new friends, because she didn't have him as a security blanket anymore. So there were people she already were friends with, but she did not really see how much they wanted. Right, she couldn't see it anymore because she only was like it was like Rory Rory, rory, rory, rory. And then she started meeting new people and all of a sudden she went from having no one to having a beautiful community, right?

Speaker 2:

But I guess I see, and I think that's beautiful you know that's one of my favorite parts of the story is watching her build community, because I love that for people in general and I love that these people, that she didn't realize how many people she had around her that cared about her, and I love that part. I'm not saying that it has to happen, but I'm saying if you all can have some honest conversations with each other and put in some serious boundaries, I think that friendship is redeemable. Does she have to have that friendship? No, she can be fine without him as well. I just don't think that it's.

Speaker 1:

I think I see they both participate in this toxic cycle with each other and both of them need to make changes in general and to make their friendship work you know, like, like, when she said that she was gonna fly, like every like everybody like really rallied around her and he was the only one other than patty who is her, her biggest hater. We don't let's take patty out of the equation, because patty is because they're not friends and she's not part of that she's not

Speaker 1:

she's not her people, she's not her tribe everybody else like really, really poured, poured into her and this is the thing. It wasn't like she was all of a sudden using people because she was opening up more, she was connecting with people, she was building herself. It wasn't like everybody helping her.

Speaker 2:

She was part of a community, you know that's also a change that she needed to make because she has some user tendencies as well. So, building this new community where she is a reciprocal part you know what I mean when she gives to people, she pours into people and they pour into her. That is a character growth that needed to happen for her.

Speaker 1:

A thousand percent. But I think it would not have happened the way that it happened if she still had the friendship with Rory, because with Rory Rory wants all of her attention when he wants it and when he doesn't want it he wants her to be left alone, and I just think it's toxic. Their friendship was toxic, I don't disagree that it's toxic.

Speaker 2:

I just think they can work through it. Don't have to.

Speaker 1:

She could choose not to, but, like I think, in his relationship, because throughout the movie, like that's the only thing you see is him building. You don't really see him like building other other relationships with other people. It's just that. And so I'm like you know what? Okay, he's one of those guys. Now he has a boyfriend, he don't need nobody else, okay, cool. Well, you and your boyfriend, y'all seem really happy. Maybe he's healing some of your daddy issues. Y'all go over there. You know, really happy. Maybe he's healing some of your daddy issues. Y'all go over there. So, okay, do you want to talk? So we've talked about toxic friendships and we talked about her good friendships. Were you surprised that she really started to blossom when she got like some good girlfriends around her?

Speaker 2:

of course, not, of course not women. Like my female friendships have always been like some of the most important relationships and the most healing community oriented, like just all around good. So, no, I'm not at all surprised. I was so excited when she made that connection with Tamika and the bartender. Like I love the three of them, I love their dynamic, I love their relationship that I see growing and blossoming.

Speaker 2:

It's crazy to me that, like it's like these people were so close to you all along but now you discover that you know no, these are really good people Because, like before, that Tamika is just the girl you hear on the other side of the wall that you create a narrative about, but then, when you get to know her, you all actually are really good, compatible friends. And then even the people at the airport her getting closer to Kaya, the lady who sells the lotion washes, who I feel like is again a silent supporter, even though you guys weren't that close. She's rooting for you Because she calls, calls, roy out a few times about his crap. Um, who else is it in the airport? I feel like there's somebody else.

Speaker 1:

we're talking about the female relationships. Okay, we'll say that my only question. So my new question is why did she not have female friends before that that were close? I don't know that is so interesting because she, objectively, is a very likable person. She's well like they don't like her in her family, but her sister-in-law actually likes her, Like she's a girl's girl. You know what I'm saying? Like she's very personable. It seems like she really makes friends easy. I'm like where were your girlfriends at before this?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I don't know, and I mean I guess some people just don't have them, which is crazy. It's a crazy thing for me to think about, like having some relationships that have lasted so long in my life, but I am very glad that she did find them and I love it, I. I love the worships for her there is, like that, female support it's just different it does it.

Speaker 1:

It just it hits different. And I really feel like that was like the game changer because, like, they immediately started not only pouring into her but holding her accountable, like when she said, oh, I don't have anything to wear. And they're like oh, we'll come over, we'll figure out, we'll put something together. And she's like, oh, maybe tomorrow. They're like well, are you saying no because you want to go and do something else, or you just saying no because that's what you do? And she's like okay, let's go do the fashion show?

Speaker 2:

well, they, like they immediately started like holding her accountable to the things that she said she wanted yeah, agree, it was even even um kaya, the airport, encouraging her to fly and being part of that, that flight simulation, and then talking her, making sure she got the luggage so that she could go. You know, because I think the funny thing is, I think some of the things that she sells because that's Kaya's business, she owns that kiosk she could have sold her. I didn't understand that she owns that. She could have sold that luggage to her because she sells luggage, but no, she's like I know you can't afford it. This is the way you go. Get it for free.

Speaker 1:

Do you know? The entire time I thought she was like working at a kiosk but trying to sell her own stuff on the side. No, I think that's hers. That is amazing.

Speaker 2:

There's a little scene where she leaves oh, where, well, like she leaves, oh, she said, oh, no, okay, so she's trying to sell the lotion washes to that lady and she was like you're supporting a black woman's me-owned business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I did hear her say that and I thought she was specifically talking about the lotion washes and then, later on, like when the guy's like, well, can you get off.

Speaker 2:

He essentially asked her can you get off work to go? And she was like who gonna stop me? Because she, you know what I mean, it's her business.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I heard her say who gonna stop me? That's why she was just being sassy. But I love her even more knowing now that that's actually her own business.

Speaker 2:

And again, like I said, like she could have sold her luggage but she was like no, I know enough to know you can't. This is how you get it for free. Cause like it's about supporting you, not just you know. Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Yes, there were like beautiful examples of um, female friendships and female support and why, like those relationships are so important. But one of the things that we got to see in this show, which I don't feel like often gets portrayed, are friendships between, like women and men that are healthy and fun and not crossing any line. Now, I'm not including terrence in this conversation. I think that Terrence belongs in a different conversation. But the two guys who work on the tarmac with Terrence they are so funny, they have a friendship together.

Speaker 2:

I love their friendship. I do too. You know, seeing healthy male friendships on screen is something that does not happen often.

Speaker 1:

Right.

Speaker 2:

I love it.

Speaker 1:

But like they are great friends to her, like you see them interacting with Kaya, like you just see, like they are just great guys and great friends, like they they they tease her, but they also encourage her and they show that they care about her like I.

Speaker 1:

I love that I love that because, once again, that's not always something that we see, you know and I, she's getting all of like. She went from this very, very toxic friendship with rory to all of a sudden opening herself up and she has so many people who, like you said, were right there in her face, who actually care about her. But the only difference nothing changed, except she allowed herself to receive it, because they were always doing this. They were always speaking to her, interacting with her, loving on her, encouraging her, but she never received it before agreed she let them into her life a lot more too, I think, during this process with her loving on her encouraging her, but she never received it before.

Speaker 2:

Agreed you, let them into her life a lot more too? I think during this process.

Speaker 1:

Yes, the show is a great example about the power of friendship and the power of community. You have to ask yourself if I'm stuck and I'm not able to grow, I'm not able to move forward, I'm not able to reach my goals. Maybe I need to look around and see who's around me and maybe I need to expand my community. Maybe I need to decrease my community and then push some people out.

Speaker 2:

Or take a break, take a healthy break. But one of the things is I like that point because, like so much of her issue is that she can't see a way out and so these people being able to give her glimpses, and because of how they see her versus how she sees herself, she gets to start to see her way out because they can see her being in the management program, they can see her on trips, planes and flights. Girl, when I tell you that flight simulator that they set up for her in order to help her girl, I almost, almost tears. I was like, okay, I'm not going to go out there like a punk, but I almost did.

Speaker 1:

It was beautiful, because the effort, the thought and just the way they loved the thought and just the way they loved the way that they all loved on her, you can very easily tell she's never experienced anything like that.

Speaker 2:

No, no, it feels like family, you know, in a way that she's, like you said, never experienced. That is what family is, that's what people, who, who care about you, that's what that feels like. And to even to be able to open her up to the point where she could even. I don't think romantic love is not the point of the goal, um, and it doesn't have to be, but the way she could even open herself up enough to think, oh, maybe I could have romantic love is because now she's like, oh, this is what love is supposed to feel like.

Speaker 1:

Right, absolutely, absolutely. They people can love you right where you are, right where you are, and so, yeah, that was beautiful, it was, that was. That was very, a very touching.

Speaker 2:

I love the way that was done but I love that about shows in general, like when they really show people build a community and come together and how that looks. I love those depictions of it. I love seeing those relationships form and how they kind of get their little their thing with each other. Yeah, okay. So the two guys in the airport, sean and Deshawn, they're like brothers, they are. They're like brotherly figures in the best way though, because they tease you, you, but they love you. They're gonna push you, but they're not gonna let you quit on yourself, you know and so that, juxtaposed to her actual brother, is jarring.

Speaker 1:

You know her actual blood brother, who? Here's the thing. It's not that he does not love his sister, he does love her, but it is wrapped up in so much toxicity from all of the family baggage. True, they have little moments. They do have little moments when they connect.

Speaker 1:

You know and you're like this is how their relationship is supposed to be, but it never stays that way long and here's the thing I'm going to say this it's not all the brother, because she has a lot of problems and in some ways he's correct. At 35 she should have herself together. So it's not a one-sided thing where she's just a victim and her brother is a terrorizer. He has her terrorizer, he has her issues and he has his issues and it leads to a terrible relationship. But I agree that the guys on the tarmac show her how beautiful a brother sister relationship could be. They do. That was very beautiful. It was very beautiful. I really enjoyed that. We started off. You know, talking about the toxic relationship stuff is kind of hard, but I feel like we ended on a beautiful note. Sometimes you have to take the bitter to appreciate the sweet.

Speaker 2:

I like that. It sounds beautiful.

Speaker 1:

So, guys, thank you so much for joining us with this episode. I'm really, really looking forward to our next episode. Please join us. It'll be our final episode on how to die alone. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2:

See you next time.