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Next Episode
Our Cross to Bear
This episode dives deep into how grief shapes the narratives of Alex Cross and those around him, examining the emotional turmoil that arises from loss. Exploring themes of accountability, relationships, and unresolved pain, we reflect on the importance of addressing grief rather than letting it fester unchecked, highlighting the struggles of Alex as a father and a professional in mental health.
• Examining the role of grief as a central theme in the Alex Cross narrative
• Discussing Alex’s avoidance of therapy and its implications
• Understanding Alex’s guilt regarding his wife’s murder
• Insights into parenthood amid loss and its impact on children’s well-being
• The dynamic of Cross’s friendships and accountability
• The effect of grief on secondary characters like Nancy and Peter
• Highlighting societal expectations and personal experiences with mourning
• The necessity of recognizing and addressing grief for healing
Hi guys, welcome back to next episode with Niq and. I'm Jess and today we're going to continue our conversation about Cross, and today I really want to explore grief and its role in the season. If you think about it like the serial killer was one plot line, the stalker was another plot line, I feel like grief was also a plot line this season. What do you think about that?
Jess:No, no, I agree. We see, like Alex Cross' grief is such a big part of what's going on right now that, yeah, it does also feel like a character. But there are other people grieving in the show as well.
Nig:Yes. So my first question to you is Alex is a forensic psychologist, right, right? Why is he running from therapy to help with his wife's?
Jess:death. Have you ever heard like doctors and nurses make the worst patients?
Nig:Yes, I have heard that.
Jess:You know that's what it is. Um, sometimes it's so hard when you're the helper to go get help and I also think that's coupled by the fact that Alex is really smart and he's like the best in his field. It's kind of there's a little bit of arrogance there, like who can help me, you know, and trusting someone else when he's like at the top of of his field. But yeah, he absolutely needs to go therapy and he is running full speed for it.
Nig:And so do you also think, because his wife was murdered and at the time of his wife's murder he has no idea why she's murdered. Later on he comes to the understanding of it, but he has a huge amount of guilt about the fact that his wife was murdered and the fact that he could not protect her. Do you think in a sense he feels like he deserves that pain and is? Could that also be a reason why he doesn't seek help, because he feels like he deserves that, that hurt and pain and shame that he feels?
Jess:absolutely, absolutely, and I actually think that that's pretty common with grief too Like to blame yourself, even when it's not realistic to blame yourself. I think that that is normal and that's definitely a place people go, but also, yes, he clearly the guilt is around him not being able to protect her and him seeing himself as a protector just in general, like he's supposed to be able to protect everybody. It is unrealistic. But I think that's also why he goes into these days as a police officer and not as a part of the FBI. It never goes to the FBI, even though he's clearly well qualified for it. I think being a police officer on the ground in the community feels more like he's protecting people. His grief is palpable. I think being a police officer on the ground in the community feels more like he's protecting people.
Nig:Yeah, and here's the like. His grief is palpable, like the pain that you see him experience through this series. Kudos Aldous Hodge. He did a great job. He really did a great job and, like I was, I was so like sucked in. So, for example, there's a scene where he's calling the radio station, um, and he's talking to like would you consider that the dj, yeah, the, the host of the show, um, and it was like his wife's favorite show and they used to call in and listen to music together. And he's talking to the DJ about his wife and I'm like that's the closest thing to a therapy session you have had.
Nig:But at the same time, like when I tell you, that scene was ripping my heart, like the pain, the pain that he is in. I don't know how he's functioning and he's not in a lot of ways In a lot of ways he's not.
Nig:He's not functioning in a lot of ways. So when the show picks up after the murder of his wife, it's a little bit. Over a year has passed and I feel like he has really honestly not dealt with her death at all, other than he has accepted the fact that she's really dead. Yeah, dealt with her death at all, other than he has accepted the fact that she's really dead? Yeah, so he's not in denial, but he has not, I feel like, dealt with her death in a way that is productive at all. And so you find out things like he was trying to solve his wife's murder himself, which you know is a no-no, just like you know, a doctor doesn't operate on their family members. He should not be investigating his wife's murder. And in the course of that investigation he ends up actually assaulting an innocent man who he's convinced was the one that killed his wife.
Nig:Or had some information on her, or something like that Right and he so he assaulted this man and his best friend, 2john, who's his partner, turned him in, and that speaks to the person that 2 John is. Here's the thing. I know that Alex Cross is an amazing detective and I understand that he is also the main character of the show, but 2 John is an amazing human being. He just is. He just is because not only is he a great friend to him and he's like, good to his family and he's good at his job, he has integrity, but he also has a level of emotional intelligence Like. I know we're going to dive deeper into their relationship at another time, but when I found out that he turned him in, I'm like man. I like this character Because one of the things like whenever you see like men friendship portrayed on tv a lot of times it's like supporting them in their rights and in their wrongs and not necessarily holding them accountable.
Nig:And so for his friend to hold him accountable and feel like, hey, this is for your betterment is amazing. But alex just did not see it that way. Alex understood, I feel like, intellectually, what he was doing and how he was doing it and he but he kept bringing it up anytime he got mad at two. John. He, like you, turned me in. I'm like y'all were just eating fries together and y'all were happy as clams and now you got your finger in his face like that man. You knew that man turned you in. Anytime he gets mad, he throws it in his face and I just think that that's part of his grief has him being so irrational. Well, okay, I actually think that.
Jess:Well, yes, I don't disagree with what you just said, but I also think it speaks to the thing that we were talking about last time, about how complicated the relationship with Black people and the police are. And the reason why I say that is because 2John turned him in thinking that they were going to force him to go to counseling, which you can do, which the police could have done and your job can do, if whatever you're going through is affecting your job, and that's what his expectation is. But no matter how good you are, you are still Black. And so instead of that, they took him out for six months. They gave him a six-month suspension.
Jess:So when 2 John is turning him in, he's thinking that this is also going to get him some help and really push him into getting some help, and at that time he definitely needed it and did not need to be out there doing police work Right. He did not know how harsh a sentence that they were going to give him and they definitely brought the hammer down on him unnecessarily, like now. Do I think he needed time off? I do. I still think you could have did that without a suspension. There's so many things you could do to also make sure he gets into therapy but also take some time off, but it not be like a mark on his record. And they didn't do that.
Nig:I agree. I think that one. I feel like, whatever they did, their mandatory therapy should have been a component and I feel like he should have been psychologically cleared before he could come back to work. But I think that they could have taken him out of being a detective and had him do something in another capacity, maybe more community policing, where he's going out and he's talking to kids about different stuff, I feel like because his job is really important to him. I think that six months off of his job is really kind of cruel. I just I think that they could have. He would have been better serviced just because, like you said, he loves, he wants to feel like he's protecting people. I think, keeping him like within the community, working with the community but also receiving therapy, and he should have been psychologically cleared before he went back to work. I think that that, to me, made a better sense than just, okay, just go sit down for six months For six months, and I agree with you.
Jess:And when you do the mandatory therapy, you can stipulate it, and it's usually stipulated, there's levels to this. So you can say mandatory therapy and you continue to. Stipulated like there's levels to this. So you can say mandatory therapy and you continue to work because we still think you're safe, we think you're unsafe. You got to sit down for a month mandatory therapy and then you do have to be cleared to go back to work. That is part of that process. You know what I mean. There's so many options that they could do and they just went to penalizing him right, which again is the whole issue with how they treat black people.
Nig:That is very true. Yes, it is. It's not a rehabilitation system, it's very much a penal system. Yeah, that makes sense. But, like so, even with that six month suspension, he still did not. He still has not dealt with his grief at all and I feel like it's to his detriment in so many ways. I feel like it makes his job harder, it makes him more vulnerable because he has a hair trigger. Now, what do you want to say?
Jess:I was going to say but you notice, like when, after his wife's died and he's in the police station, and like right before he interacts with the white supremacist, he's filling out a voluntary form.
Nig:Okay, yeah, I saw that and they cause. The chief says to him hey, I know you want to take a leave of absence, but no, we need you on this case. And at that point I did not know about the six month suspension. I'm not saying that information wasn't out there. Like I sometimes I miss stuff, so at that point I did not know about the six months he'd already been off six months.
Nig:Yeah right, so he's requesting, or at least tried to right, and so I thought that that was really, really interesting. Because they're like, oh no, you can't take this leave of absence, I wonder what he was going to do with. Because they're like, oh no, you can't take this leave of absence, I wonder what he was going to do with that leave of absence. My feeling is he was just going to be hunting for his wife's killer. I can't prove it. I don't think he was taking that leave of absence to like, let me go and get in therapy, get in somebody's program and better myself. I think he was like you know what I need to find out? I need to find out.
Jess:I need to figure out who's who's killing my. Who killed my wife? That's what I feel like. That sounds more like cross honestly.
Nig:And so one of the things like I talked about the fact that you know he's a mental health professional, yet not only does he, is he not like in counseling, as far as I know his, is he not in counseling? As far as I know, his kids are not in counseling either. That is a good point. Everybody needs to be in therapy, yes, but not only that. He's ignoring his kids' mental health issues.
Nig:He has his grandmother who is helping as caretakers, you know, of the children, and she is constantly bringing things to the forefront, saying, hey, your children are having these issues, your children are having these issues. And he is. His grief is wrapped around him so tightly it's even though you see him fathering his kids and you know he has a love for his kids. It's like he is so caught up in his grief that he's not even making sure that the kids are mentally okay, like he's okay with making sure they're physically okay. They're physically okay, they're well provided for you know what I mean but he's not meeting their emotional needs no, he can do happy stuff with them, if you notice.
Nig:he can do like playful stuff with them, but anytime like he has to deal with like conflict with them or something bad is happening, it's like he can't, he can't go there with them and I'm just like sir, okay, you don't want to deal with your grief for you, but what? What about your children? Once again, it's yeah.
Jess:That scene where the little boy says you lost mom, but we lost mom and you I almost lost it.
Nig:Yes, I almost lost it. Yes, because that, honestly, perfectly sums up where Alex is emotionally like he, and I don't know if it's like he if he's trying to protect his kids in a certain sense by creating that distance. You know what I'm saying? Like making it, I don't know what. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like he's putting emotional distance between him and his kids so if something happened to him, he feels like it would hurt less. Of course, we know it wouldn't, but I'm wondering if that's what he's trying to do. But he definitely doesn't have it.
Jess:I think he doesn't have the ability to bandwagon, I don't think he just does not have it, but he's still working.
Nig:You're hunting a serial killer and then at some point you're also hunting a stalker, but it's so hard for you to have a conversation with your child where you have like patience.
Jess:I think he thinks that he's not going to get past his grief until he finds her killer, until he solves the murder, and that's why that's the forefront of his mind.
Nig:But I feel like, once again, he's a mental health professional and he knows a lot of times that that is not enough. That doesn't cure the hurt.
Jess:It's still different. The whole point, though, of going to a mental health professional is someone outside yourself. It's still hard to see you, you know. That's why you go to somebody else. So, yes, he probably would tell that to somebody else perfectly, but to himself, no, he's not. He's not there. He's actually going through it.
Nig:He had a conversation with, with, with, with his friend, to John, and to John was like if you, if you had a patient to say what you just said, you would send them to the hospital. 2john's, like you are not OK and he does not sugarcoat stuff, even though he calls him sugar and that I love that so much that 2John's nickname for him is sugar. I miss that. Watch it again. He only refers to him. If you pay attention, he only refers to him as sugar. It is the cutest, it is the. They don't explain why, but I like when I tell you the fact that two dogs has a personal nickname for him and his name and he calls him sugar is just it. I love it so much they have, they are so cute. But so we talk about alex's wife's murder. But honestly, alex's trauma started very young. Yeah, because his mom was on drugs and a prostitute.
Jess:It sounds like it both his parents died young.
Nig:Yeah they both died. I think his yeah, his mom and dad both died tragically when he was very, very young. Um, they didn't die at the same time, they died separately. I think his mom died first and then his dad, and so he was raised by his grandmother, who he calls n Mama, and so, even though I really think that Nana Mama did her best and raised him well, I think those pains never really healed properly, and I think that's why he has that desire to help and to protect, because he maybe feels like his parents weren't protected yeah, you know, and it, but it's, it's to your detriment, like you should have got that stuff fixed.
Nig:You should have got that stuff fixed. And it wasn't a problem before because he was so happy, like he was someone who married his dream girl, the, the love of his life, his soulmate, and they had, like you know, children. He had the career that he wanted, they were incredibly happy, and so it was very easy, I feel like, to push down those feelings. But now, with his wife being dead, being murdered, everything is bubbling up. Yeah, everything is bubbling up.
Jess:And this probably also speaks to why he's grieving for so long because I think a lot of people are really pushing him to get over it and he's just not there yet because, like you're dealing with the grief of your wife, it's probably bringing up from the grief of things, from the grief of your parent.
Nig:It's a lot of stuff that he's working on let me ask you this, like can we be fair? I don't know that people are telling him to get over it. I think what people are telling him to do is to give help and to acknowledge where he is mentally and where he needs to be. I don't think anybody's like your wife died, get over it. But they're like, hey, you got kids and your kids need you and you're not functioning well enough. You need to fix that, you need to figure it out. You know, hey.
Jess:I feel like there's an era of you've been grieving too long.
Nig:I don't get. I don't see that, because I don't think that anyone expects him to stop grieving. I think that they expect him to get help so that at some point, yes, maybe he can stop grieving. Because this is what and I want to really talk about this more in the next episode but the fact that he is grieving and he's just raw and an open wound, but he is somehow dating. Yeah, open wound, but he is somehow dating, yeah, but you know what?
Jess:And I know everybody has brought that up and I know that that is incredibly common for men, and I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's common Most men who lose a spouse start dating again within six months.
Nig:Honestly, that's not an issue. My specific issue is that he is still hung up on on his wife, in the sense that I feel like the woman he's currently dating is competing with a ghost. And that is the issue, because a lot of times, a lot of times, that's the worst one, that's the worst kind of competition to be in. A lot of times when a lot like men who especially have been happily married, they will move on fast because they don't know how to live without companionship, but they don't bring their like ex-wife or their, their, their their deceased spouse into the relationship with them.
Jess:But it's like he's having a threesome or like the like the goat, like he's like got a got a ghost as a side chick, like he is very much still in a heavy emotional relationship with his wife, who is not alive, while dating this other woman, and that is a problem I don't know if what you're describing is common or what's healthy, because, while I would say yes, when men are able to move on and like their wife passed and they're able to have a new relationship in a way and not bring their wife into it, I think that is healthy, again, I don't know that that's what's common, because men also will use women to heal right so we have a friend who passed away during COVID and when her husband got remarried it kind of broke my heart a bit because it was like, oh, she's really gone, you know.
Nig:But one thing I know about them they were in love. Oh yeah, you know what I what I mean? Like they were, they had a beautiful relationship. They were so in love, you know. And so when I see him now with his new wife and he looks happy, he does, he does look happy, he looks so happy. You know what I mean, and I, and and I'm like you know what, I'm glad that he has that because, honestly, that's what she would want for him. She wouldn't want him to be miserable because she loved him just that much.
Jess:Yeah, and I can't remember the details. But I also don't think he definitely has remarried and is in a different relationship. But I feel like he gave himself some time. I don't feel like he did that immediately. No, no, no, I'm not saying that he did that immediately Right, but I'm saying okay, and I say that to say I think that's the difference. Like you know what I mean.
Nig:I don't know what the time frame was Right.
Jess:I can't remember the details, like I said, but I feel like he gave himself some time and while because we know that first relationship and we knew them as a couple, it's kind of a little bit hard to watch. But from what I've seen of him in the new relationship it looks very different than his first one but he does look really happy. But to me, again, that's a sign like you didn't try to recreate what you had before, you have a unique and different relationship with this new woman. But again, he gave himself some time, I think.
Nig:I don't know how much time, because time moves differently, but when I saw it it surprised me, but it was more so. Like I said, for me that was a sign that, oh my gosh, like no, she's really gone. You know, what I mean, and so it definitely wasn't immediate, but I can't tell you realistically like what the time frame was. But it wasn't like a disrespectful amount of time. No, it wasn't.
Nig:But I guess I'm just saying like I can't dating someone like seeing someone in a relationship, like after their spouse has died, like it. It can be tricky, even when you feel, even when things you know go good like. You know what I'm saying. Like, like I said, initially I was very shocked and then, as I really like got to like see their relationship, I was really really happy for him. Sad, sad for me because my friend is gone, but happy that he doesn't have to spend the rest of his life alone, because he doesn't deserve that.
Jess:He was a great husband to her. Yeah, absolutely.
Nig:The fact that Alex Cross is dating while still not over his wife's death and not even just not even over his wife like his, his wife's death is just a huge raw very present part of his life but it's, it's in every breath he takes. You know what I'm saying? Like I don't understand how he's dating it. I don't understand it.
Jess:And this is the thing. It's not. Again, not thinking of what would be healthy, but thinking of what, you see, men do, and I do think a lot of men use women to heal, whether or not they consciously know that that's what they're doing. That's what they do. You know, whether it's just that I need to feel better. So this little feed of my ego gives me a few minutes of reprieve from what I'm feeling from losing my wife. Whether it's for most men, I think it's a lot. This is not the truth for Cross, because he does have his grandmother in the house, but for a lot of men, the reason why I say they'll just move on and not be over it is because they want the functional things done that their wife does. But I don't think that the majority of them do this the healthy way. But they do move on quickly. Not move on because move on is the wrong word but they do start dating and get into relationships quickly. That's more typical for men than women. They lose a spouse.
Nig:So I want to say we talked about there are other people grieving in the show and so I want to talk about them. I want to say there is no good example of how to grieve in the show. There's no good example, I'm thinking, unless you want to use, like the children and Nana Mama, I feel like they they grieve in a way. That's fine, but oh yeah, that's true, nana Mama she lost her daughter.
Jess:At the end of the day she lost her. Well, I assume that was his mom's mom. I don't know if it was his mom or his dad's mom.
Nig:Oh, you're talking about Nana Mama, oh, when she lost her daughter. Yeah, oh, I really wasn't talking about it because we really don't get to see or experience that much of it.
Jess:I know what you're talking about, but I'm saying she has lost a child. I don't know if she's the mother of his mom or dad, but she's lost a child.
Nig:I feel like it's his mom. Yeah, I was talking about his mom, but like I don't know and eight child, I feel like it's his mom.
Jess:Yeah, I was asking mom, but I don't know. There are people who never get over losing a child. She's raised another child very functionally and she's now raising her grandkids.
Nig:I'm not saying tired, but those are her great grandkids.
Jess:Those are her great grandkids. That's what I felt for her. I was like dang, when are you going to get out of raising kids?
Nig:When are you going to take your break? She must have been a young mama also, yeah, and I think her daughter was a young mom too.
Jess:I'm like, dang, you're right, that's the great grand that she's raising, he's the great, he's the great, yeah, he's the grandson.
Nig:So so I guess, yes, you can say that Nana, mama and the children you know show an acceptable path to grieving, because you know what, like they they are, they are still dealing with their mom's death, but I feel like they kind of face it more head on, you know, and they, they try to honor their mom's death, but I feel like they kind of face it more head on, you know, and they try to honor their mom a lot. If you see, like when the son is his name Damon girl, I think, so we're going to call him Damon Damon was wearing, like, the mom's scarf, wanting to wear her watch to the recital. You know they talk about her favorite music a lot. I feel like they try to honor their mom and keep her memory alive, so I think that's honestly a very healthy degree, I agree.
Nig:So I want to talk about Ed Ramsey, who spends a lot of time in the show telling everybody that his mom is dead and that woman is very much alive, very much alive. And so when you find out that his mom is alive and they go visit the mother, you find out that she lost her daughter when her daughter was a child and now we agree that Ed killed her, right? Yeah, because he said he would do anything to be an only child. Now, when Alex discusses his sister's death with Ed Ramsey, he talks about how, because of the sister's death, the mom never, like the mom, withheld love from him. But if Ed killed the sister, he was already having issues before that.
Jess:And the thing is, I think the mom knows that he killed the sister, right? Yeah, so then that makes more sense as to why she would withhold love so he didn't kill her. You know what I mean? Like he was already having yeah, he's already having issues before. He was already on this kind of sociopathic path before because he started with killing the animals. Um, he killed the sister. And then how does the mom? The mom doesn't seem to turn him in, but she seems to know that he did it because she, she says, has he done something else bad?
Nig:Right, I feel like she treats him as if he's possessed by a demon and she can pray it out Like she gets uber religious. She is uber religious, you know what I mean. And I feel like she's like, oh, it's right, because it's just the devil, you know, and so, but she still lives with the daughter's death and it stops her from functioning. You know, that's true, we know that she was functioning and she withheld from him, and so once again.
Jess:Well, that's why I think Outcross's analysis is wrong, where he's a bit off Because he doesn't have the information that he killed the sister. He's right that he's become a serial killer because the sister just died and after that he killed the sister. And then after that, the mom is dealing with both the grief and death of her child, who she kind of makes it seem like she's like a saint, you know, and it may be because she died or what have you and and the fact that her other child killed them right.
Nig:I wonder, though, if she already knew who he was before he killed the sister. Like knew that he had his issues and probably like had a better relationship with the daughter. He said that his mom never knew about the birds. Remember he said that she never knew about the birds. He said that to him, like my mom never knew about the birds.
Jess:Maybe she still picked up on something wrong with this boy.
Nig:Yeah, you know your child, you know your child. I think she picked up on an evilness in him and so probably preferred the sister, which makes it worse. You know what I mean, and so it's chicken and egg. You know, alex thought that. You know he was created, and no, he was born. He was born.
Jess:And I think that was important for Ramsey to let Alex know no, I was born. He was born, and I think that was important for Ramsey to let Alex know. No, I was born like this, Right?
Nig:He's like no, this is me, baby. Nobody controls my destiny but me. I'm Birdfeet McGee.
Jess:Not Birdfeet McGee.
Nig:So once again we see the mom mishandling her grief Because if she was functional, she would have turned her son in for killing her daughter. But you know, like you, you're trying to pray the evil away, you know, and not, I guess, not want to feel like you've lost both of your children.
Jess:Maybe no, because I think she can't nothing about that boy. I, I don't. I I think one of the things that rsey does I don't think I added S's to his name but Ramsey does is that he preys on, like social kind of capital, even from young. So he's blackmailing the kid who knows that he's killing the birds into being quiet by not exposing his father's affairs. Right Well, his mother, I don't think she cares about that boy at all. She's very religious and what would it look like for her son to have killed her daughter?
Nig:Maybe this evil demon seed You're right, you're right, you're right. He's very good at playing those social games. Yeah, and he's also the black male king.
Jess:I mean, he like basically a social strategist for, um uh, politicians like he's. I think he runs campaigns or something like that.
Nig:I'm gonna be real with you I could never figure out what he did like. I just knew he knew. Yeah, I knew he was in politics because he was working with the congresswoman or something congresswoman, and then he said something about running somebody's campaign. Okay, I never could understand what he was doing and I'm like I just know he got a lot of money and he has no scruples.
Jess:No, not a scruple to be found.
Nig:I'm like, okay, that's why he got a scruple. Because he is scruple-less. Also, I was really upset that the Congresswoman did not get exposed.
Jess:I was too. You know what I'm going to say. This this is making me want to punch her in the face a little bit. You know who your husband is. You know that in this, the dirt that Ramsey has on the Congresswoman is that her husband is a pedophile. Why would you try to have a child with him? Yeah, that's crazy. You were going to extra lengths to have a child with this man that you already knew who he was. That really, I'm like, yeah, that she didn't get. I'm still hoping that maybe she will get exposed in season two, because we still got that FBI is going to get all the dirt she so she's going to get that information from bobby right yeah that I was like okay, hold on, because this is my when.
Nig:So the congresswoman. There's a scene in the house. She's oh, she's speaking the house. That's crazy. That's crazier. So there's a scene where she's at Ed Ramsey's birthday party. Mind you, ed Ramsey is the serial killer and people don't know he's a serial killer, but he has this huge birthday party of yours. So she is at his birthday party. She has snuck away from everybody and she's smoking a cigarette. First of all, that made me mad. Why are you smoking in that man's house? That is wild, wild behavior, like where she she was outdoors.
Jess:I don't think she was. She was Because, think about it, when the girls, when she sees the girls, like he's got one of those indoor-outdoor, she was in like an outdoor space.
Nig:I thought she was in like an indoor garden or something.
Jess:It's a garden, which is why I assumed it's outdoors, because, if you think about it, the girl he's kidnapped, shannon, has run up to the glass and she can't get out, so that is outside. She's trying to get outside and the woman's on the other side of the glass.
Nig:So wait a minute because I just want to make sure you understand. She literally is smoking a cigarette and she sees, like the woman, that he's kidnapped and she's one. She stays there and watches the two of them fight it out it's a change like if you were not going to get this woman out, I would have ran you got the police chief upstairs that's true, that is true, but she knows that she can't expose Ramsey because he knows too much.
Nig:You got the police chief upstairs, that's true. That is true In the house, but she knows that she can't expose Ramsey because he knows too much about her. But why did you stay at the party If you were outside because you were smoking a cigarette? Why did you go back inside the house? Because I would have gotten in my car and left. You're inside the party. You went back inside in the party and you're like so scared, like you're shaking, and left. You're inside the party. You went back inside in the party and you're so scared, you're shaking and stuff. Why?
Jess:did you not go home? Social conventions and social norms are a lot more important than they are to us. Think of who she is. She is a politician. It would have looked away if she had left and therefore possibly angered Ramsey. She's like, okay, I'm not going to say anything and I'm going to play this part. That's a signal to him that I'm not going to be a problem.
Nig:That's wild to me. I'm telling you that that is what he's good at. She could have picked up a she's in a garden. She could have picked up a rock and broke the glass.
Jess:That little woman was not going to do nothing to him and he is not this huge, big, strong, strapping man. She just was not about to do nothing to him.
Nig:The crazy guy extra strength Because he was because he, because, like she was fighting, like the woman he kidnapped, she was giving her all, she was fighting him and he is like he was handling her every time, even when she was not like a huge woman like she would get the swipe of her hand.
Jess:She's still not like a huge woman. I know she's like a thin woman. If any man in that series could have taken him out, yeah, because the guy, all the men that he took out, he took out by sneak attack. He drugged Amir and then the guy who was coming to fix the house work on the house, he got him from behind Toe to toe. He went against no man. So you got a little old woman who is frail and already scared because you got all this stuff on her. And then you got this woman who is she's thin, she's not like a frail. You got this woman who is I mean, she's thin, she's not like a frail, weak looking woman, but she's also. There's a size differential between the two of them.
Nig:I don't know.
Jess:Any male in that house could took him out.
Nig:I, just when she took to watch that man like, attack her and then drag her Girl, I would have already been gone, gone as soon as I realized I could not open the door and he popped up two feet. You know how in Scooby Doo they're running and you see the little that would have been me. That would have been me, I would have beat feet so fast. I don't care, straight to my car, straight to my car. There's no way, because you just don't know. If he's capable of that, he's capable of anything. But you know what? Maybe she's desensitized because her husband's a pedophile and she knows it and he's given her evidence of him messing with very young children and she's like you know. So maybe she's desensitized, you know, I don't know power.
Jess:Power and money is more important than everything else but back to our topic of grief.
Nig:I know I went on a little tangent. No, I definitely went on that tangent because that Congresswoman, like that situation like really, really irritated me. But back to talking about grief. The last person I want to talk to concerning grief is I want to talk about Miss Nancy and Peter and Peter. So in the show we find out that um, alex Cross gives testimony in a murder trial, um, which gives a woman is it life in prison?
Jess:like I think so.
Nig:Life in prison, but she ended up hanging herself yeah, she ends up killing herself in prison because she um getting really abused. And her family which is not her blood family, it's her adopted family they're really upset with Cross and you find out at the end of the show that they've infiltrated his life and that they're the ones that are stalking. And so what Miss Nancy, who is the mom, is saying is that she is so grief stricken that Alex Cross took away her opportunity, said that she was broken and unfixable, took away her life and had her put in prison. He had to pay for that because she ends up killing herself. She lost her daughter.
Nig:Now, what we learned for the full story is the daughter never had to pay for that, because she ends up killing herself. She lost her daughter. Now, what we learned for the full story is the daughter never actually killed anyone. It was the son that killed someone. The mom convinces the daughter to take a rap because she thought because she was like a little young white girl with no criminal record that she would get a slap on the wrist and move on. But this man was first of all. This man was violently killed.
Jess:He was violently killed. That's a very good point Extremely.
Nig:He was there. He was violently killed, extremely violent. So when she said, oh, they'll probably let you out in less than a year, was she lying to herself or was she lying to her daughter?
Jess:Well, I think she believed that they would let her out in less than a year. The issue is more so that you don't think that this boy needs to be in prison for this violent murder. Like I do think she genuinely believed they're not going to give this white girl with no priors a real prison time, genuinely believed they're not going to give this white girl with no priors a real prison time. You know, she just couldn't account for what was going to happen to her in prison and how she was going to present and how that happened. So I think she believed that she wasn't going to get any time. But it's like the issue is really like but he needs to be in jail if he's committing violent murders, and I guess that's kind of a plot hole. So if Deidre did not kill him on a date, which is what we were led to believe, why?
Nig:did Peter kill him? I think he was robbing him.
Jess:You think he was just robbing. They never explained, though, like they never explained that. They explained that he actually did it, but not why. I don't think that he even interacted with the man. This is a random man.
Nig:I think that, yeah, I think he was robbing him and he killed him. They never said that, though. No, they didn't say that. That's what I assume, but I I'm sorry.
Jess:There's no reason for them to be connected. That is a plot hole. There's no reason for him to be connected to that random man, because the reason why it's so easy to believe what Deidre is is because it makes sense that she comes from a broken home, doesn't have a family, that she would be on a dating app and then that would happen. That makes sense. There's no reason why Peter and this man that he apparently killed are connected.
Nig:When you look at the details that the prosecutor gives of the murder and you see them reenact the murder on the show with Deidre of the murder and like you see, like them, um, reenact the murder on the show with deidre committing the murder. Yeah, I think the man was like tied up and stuff. That looked like a rock, it looked like a robbery. That's why I said it. I think he was robbing him because, if you like, take out the fact that it's a woman doing those acts. If you place a man in that same situation, it's giving robbery. You know what I'm saying, but I don't. I think the mom's logic of using the daughter was flawed from the beginning. Oh, I think it was flawed from the beginning. Oh, I think it was flawed from the beginning, most definitely. But my issue is I feel like she puts an unnecessary amount of blame on Alex also. Hello, it doesn't make sense.
Jess:Yes, Okay, you just disappeared.
Nig:The last thing that you did too, but I just kept talking as if you were still there. I didn't know, you couldn't hear me. No, I was saying I feel like the mom placed an unnecessary amount of blame on Alex. Now do I agree with the testimony that Alex gave? No, I don't know like it did seem extremely harsh the testimony that he gave, the way that he talked about her. It did seem unnecessarily harsh. Hello, yes, hello. I don't know why that's happening.
Jess:You said okay, you don't agree with the testimony that alex gave.
Nig:It seemed extremely harsh yes, like the way he was, like oh, she's so broken, she can't be fixed.
Jess:Like I'm like, honestly and that, and that's the line he knows that he shouldn't have said. I think that was just kind of a misspeak, but what I think he should have said rather than she can't be fixed, because you can never determine that she's not safe to be in the community is more a correct line, I agree.
Nig:I think he could have said that she's not safe to be in the community. Why don't we give her some counseling and let's see if she responds to it? It was like that's what I'm saying, Like to me, the testimony was characteristic of him.
Jess:He's there to testify as to whether or not she can rejoin the community, as in like do we need to put her in jail or does she need to be in something else? Like where do you think, or is there a possibility of rehabilitation? And so he was like not enough for her to be safe in the community. And that's why I think the line should have been and I and he knows that, he knows he misspoke, you know he realizes that's a mistake like he's. Like professionals are not perfect, we always get it right, but like um, I think he, so I think um, it's more so she's not safe to be in the community. And then, yeah, there could have been some recommendations there as to what would be proper and safe for her, but he is also not working with all the information because he thinks that she did commit this murder.
Nig:Right, I agree. Also, deidre and Peter, her brother, who actually committed the murder, are writing all these letters back and forth, and Peter's like oh, I should just confess, but why didn't you? She was in jail, she couldn't stop you, right? If it was really that important, elaborate stalking scam trying to like, really destroy Alex Cross's entire life because they are grieving Dee Dee. But I think that that's not. I don't know that that's real, though I don't think that that's real.
Jess:Oh, I think that they are grieving. They're absolutely grieving Dee Dee, and I think they both did think that she would get a lighter sentence because all the evidence that they have and they understand enough of police, again, it would make sense. That's what usually happens for girls like that. What they did not account for and could not account for is how being in prison was going to change her to. When she got there she didn't appear like the innocent, sweet little white girl, she was the broken what have you because of what was going on in the prison and they couldn't account for that. But I think it is both a mix of, because it doesn't have to be one thing. They are absolutely grieving the loss of her because both of them did respond to her in a familiar way, but they are also both avoiding accountability for their own actions.
Nig:Okay. I think, maybe that's what I was trying to say.
Jess:And blaming Alex Cross and hyper-focusing on Alex Cross gives them a way to avoid accountability for their own actions.
Nig:Because I'm like, peter, if you really feel that bad, why didn't you tell them the truth before she hung herself, the first time she got punched in the face? You could have literally went in there and told the truth. She got punched in the face. You could have literally went in there and told the truth. But also, why didn't the mom tell Peter what she did, that she convinced her to go and confess? Because I'm like, why did Peter think that she went and confessed for him?
Jess:like I don't know the goodness of her own heart, but they did have this weird kind of sick way too close. You know't mean like they respond like their family, family, but it's not in a healthy way either. No, it was because I wonder and I I don't think that this is addressed or stated this, I think this is an assumption I'm making that maybe miss nancy cannot have children and that's why she clings to them so much Like they're her real children. Because it's funny to me that she says once they get to the cabin, she says to Elle, those aren't your kids, but you're responding to these kids that are not your kids as if they are.
Nig:Yeah. So it's another example of if you do not grieve properly. But I think part of their grieving would be honestly taking responsibility, because Peter killed a man yeah, he violently. I think they said something like he, was it 17 blows or something like that.
Jess:I don't know. That's one of them times I had to be like her hitting that thing. I was like I can't.
Nig:So this is the thing, like once again, let's say, like they came up with the story that she was on a date. When you were on a date and somebody attacks you, you did not hit them 17 times. It doesn't make sense. But like, peter is the one who committed the murder, miss Nancy is the one who convinced Dee Dee to take the fall for the murder. Yet they're blaming everything that happened on Alex. But here's the thing she was already broken by the time Alex met her, because she immediately started getting abused in jail. And yet they did punish the CO who was abusing her.
Nig:That's Brenda, who went after Alex with the blanks in her gun, didn't know she had blanks in her gun, but't know she had blanks in her gun. But I just feel like they had, I feel like they should have dealt with her death, the roles that they had in her death, and I think that maybe they could have gotten over it by now, because this has been a while now. Yeah, you know, I think it just goes to show grief looks different on different people in different situations, but if it's not handled, it ultimately becomes like almost like obsession, like everybody is obsessed with the person that they lost and it's to their detriment.
Nig:No, one fully living in the present moment like nobody is here and what's going on right?
Jess:now yeah.
Nig:And so I I really I think that was really interesting because I'm it's very rare that you find a show that has, like grief as a major plot point, where that's not all the show is about. You know what I'm saying. Like I feel like, like I said, I feel like grief was like the third plot point in the show is about. You know what I'm saying. Like I said, I feel like grief was the third plot point in the show, but they weaved it in where it was Alex, but it was also other characters, and you can kind of see how it can rip your life apart. It can stop you from living. You die when they die if you don't move past it, you know, because you stop progressing.
Jess:Yeah, like you're stuck. Definitely, Miss Nancy is definitely stuck.
Nig:She's insane.
Jess:Oh yeah.
Nig:Like oh, also also, I feel like she was already insane. She was insane that day she told her to take the fall. Because that was crazy then, and the way that she was like, oh, they're gonna throw the book at Peter yeah, before yeah, she was already. She was already, and that's why she eventually sets herself on fire.
Jess:She does. I can't never be that mad at me.
Nig:I can't either, I can't even, and so like she gets, so like that's what I'm saying, I think that, like it was not, I feel like to a certain extent it was not about Dee Dee, because she just it was about her.
Jess:I think it would be all of it mixed.
Nig:I don't think it has to be like she was like wanting to kill the kids and Peter was like, hey, we never agreed to hurt children. She's like, no, he's got to feel what I felt, he's got to understand my feelings. But it's like, ma'am, she would have never been in that position to even be hurt had you not told her to take the fall. But somehow you've made everything about alex crossing, about your pain, how you're so hurt. You're so hurt. And it was you. You did it. Yeah, so I don't know, she got a little, she got a little. I feel like a little narcissism I don't know narcissism, but there's.
Jess:But there's something off. There's definitely some kind of issue, even like the way she's a puppet master Well, the relationship that she crafted with those two children and we don't get to see a lot of it, but what we know is that it had to be unhealthy For you to be able to get to the point where you can convince this girl to take a fall for this guy that she's like. I have no choice because that's my brother and in her repeating that line, family blood doesn't make you family Families who love you. Yeah, there's something off about her. I don't think I'm ready to call it narcissism, but there's definitely something off.
Nig:Well, what do cult leaders have? It's given cult of three.
Jess:Oh goodness. Well, yeah, A lot of times they are narcissists. But yeah, I don't know. I just don't feel like we've gotten enough of that to see it for me to feel comfortable saying it.
Nig:Yeah, that's because you actually know the real criteria, and I'm just like I feel it in my shoulder.
Jess:I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I don't have enough information. But again, that's why I crossed his diagnosis. It's wrong because he does not have to correct help that You've got her lying about being the murderer. You know she comes from a birth and childhood because she has no family. But this woman and he doesn't even know this woman exists. So again, from his perspective as the professional, she has no family at all, there's no support system.
Nig:I'm just thankful no one has ever put me in that situation, because the way I would have been like yes, yes, nancy, nancy, I will do it and went to the police station and told them Everything that Peter did Everything, the way I would have went up there and sang and told them that Miss Nancy was trying to get me to take the fall suit. So can you lock her up? For that I'm not built. I'm not built for that.
Jess:And then to your point If she's cultivating these relationships, people who are in some way a predator and I don't mean predator as in sexual predator, but like you're praying with people, they know who- to pick.
Nig:That's very true, because Ramsay did the same thing, in the sense that he would find people's weaknesses and he would use those to get them under his thumb, like how he found the lady who wanted to have a baby, which also I feel like that was crazy, one of the dumbest things, I think because I'm like what's the point of having a baby?
Jess:You're not going to be able to raise it, you're not going to be able to be pregnant, even though you might have thought you got away with it, you knew that was a risk and so it does not make sense.
Nig:If you were going to turn yourself in anyway, why didn't you turn yourself in before you shot that man in the head?
Jess:Because you turned yourself in the next day, basically One day before I can't do this, let me go ahead and turn myself in. Before you've committed murder and now you're going to jail for a long time and you will never see this child again, right, and your child is going to be born in prison.
Nig:Honestly, if you had not committed that murder, yeah, you would have probably got some time, but not on the level. But also and I'm saying this as someone who desperately wanted to have a child like giving up your freedom to have a child does not make sense. When you can just baby, just adopt, at this point, why do you have to carry the baby? If you want a baby, that bad like this is going to sound terrible. There are a lot of countries you can go to and buy a baby you said buy a baby, no you know what it is.
Nig:You know they're like you can call. They call it whatever they want. They're buying children. You know I don't. You know they're like you can call. They call it whatever they want they're buying children.
Jess:You know I you know how I feel about international adoption. No matter what, it does not make sense for you to go through all this work to have a baby that you're not going to be able to raise and be a part of their life right, right, and I don't care what she was saying.
Nig:When she asked tujon to be the godfather, that's how she was trying to be manipulative. She tried to come back and clean it up and was like no, that's what I was saying, because I knew. No, ma'am, you knew he had you dead to rights and so you had no choice but to turn yourself in. But had that man not come, you would not have said anything. You knew exactly what you were doing. You were playing on that man's feelings when you asked him to be that tough, you know, like whatever. But yeah, I just thought I'm like man, that price was a little low. A baby, a baby, that price was way too low, way too low.
Jess:Y'all ain't got no health insurance.
Nig:She said they use their health insurance, they use all of their savings listen you are trying to force your body at that point to do something it don't want to do. Let it go, baby. Let it go and figure out another way. There's a baby on earth that needs you. Go buy it. That's what they're buying children. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. You know how I feel about international adoption. They are buying children.
Jess:I'm going to adopt somebody within the United States and they're still buying children to you. Okay, I'm going to let that go.
Nig:You know, I did my research because there was a time where I'm like, oh well, if I can't have a child, maybe I should adopt. And after doing my research I said I can't participate in this, I can't participate in this. So you know, but? And that ends our discussion on grief. And that ends our discussion on grief. Oh gosh, we went so many places. We did. We got everything that we wanted to discuss when it comes to grief. We just took some side streets. Also, we took some detours.
Jess:Definitely we did, but thank you for going on this road with us.
Nig:Yes, I hope you guys enjoyed it, and if you have any questions, just send us an email or comment down below and we will respond, no problem. But we want to see you in the next episode. It's going to be a really good one, because we're going to be talking about Alex Cross and his relationships, and so you guys you're're going to be talking about Alex Cross and his relationships, and so you guys you're not going to want to miss it. So we'll see you next time. See you next time, bye.