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Crossing the Thin Blue Line

• Niq & Jess • Episode 13

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The episode examines the intricacies of "Cross," shedding light on themes of grief, community dynamics, and police relationships while navigating the narrative complexities of Alex Cross. Through discussions about character development and societal issues, the conversation invites listeners to reflect on real-world implications as the series unfolds.

• Exploration of Alex Cross's character and his duality 
• Discussion about the impact of his wife's murder on the narrative 
• Representation of DC and the authenticity of local characters 
• Analysis of police-community relations and trust issues 
• Insights on the serial killer storyline and its implications 
• Pondering the potential direction for season two

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, welcome to the next episode with Nick and Jess, and today we are discussing Cross, and so I'm really excited about this show. So Cross is actually based on a book, right? Robert Patterson, james Patterson, james Patterson, you know me, it's definitely a.

Jess:

Patterson.

Niq:

And names it's always a mean, it's definitely a Patterson and names it's always a problem. It's always a problem. So it's James Patterson. Here's the thing I remember as a child reading an Alex Cross book. Have you ever read an Alex Cross book? I have, yeah, I've read a few James Patterson books, but I remember reading an Alex Cross book as a child. I'm going to ask you do you remember when they made the Alex Cross movie?

Jess:

I remember the Tyler Perry one.

Niq:

Yeah, and they casted Tyler Perry and I'm like who decided that we were going to do Medeo goes detecting? That was Tyler.

Jess:

Perry.

Niq:

It was a problem I feel like someone owed him a favor.

Jess:

I feel like someone owed him a favor.

Niq:

I also do feel like he had some dirt on somebody, Because I'm like this is not your role.

Jess:

He knew at least where one body was buried.

Niq:

And so it's really exciting One, that they're doing a series and two, I feel like that they gave the show the respect that it deserved and cast it like an actor. All this hodge, honestly, casting Casting really killed. They really did a great job of getting people who look like real people. Who look like real people. They look like, like the show has said, in DC and they look like DC residents. I lived in DC as a child and there's a particular kind of Blackness in DC that's different from being Black in Atlanta or Black in California or even Black in the Midwest. It's different from being Black in Atlanta or Black in California or even Black in the Midwest. It's different, and so I honestly feel like they did a really good job of making them look like people you would really actually find in DC.

Jess:

Yeah, overall, I thought that they represented DC well. They did. They had real DC vibes throughout the show. Yeah, it was like there was a love letter to DC vibes throughout the show.

Niq:

Yeah, it was like there was a love letter to DC written in this show, like talking about the mumbo sauce and going to Ben's Chili Bowl, like you know, having, like you know, some of the characters be politicians, because you will throw a rock and hit a politician in DC, like they're very much going to be in your network, even like the not-for-profit, you know, foundations, like all of that, like that's a big part of DC, and so I really think that they did a great job. They did. They represented DC well. So do you want to give a synopsis or would you like me to give us? Not, I feel like we need to give like a more detailed synopsis than we normally do, because a lot happened in this show a lot did happen okay I'll leave that up to you go ahead.

Niq:

Okay, so this show. If you're not familiar with the character alex cross, or you're not familiar with the james patterson books, um, this book is about a detective. Is he a doctor? Is he a doctor in psychology?

Jess:

Yeah, also a forensic psychologist.

Niq:

Yes, and he works as a DC police officer, which I think is kind of funny because with his pedigree and his skill level I would expect to see him in the FBI.

Jess:

But the fact that he the court offers him a job in the show in this series.

Niq:

Yeah, they do, and so he is known for solving cases. He's kind of like a hometown hero. And so the show starts with his wife being murdered and that was a little bit shocking for me, and the reason why is because they were trying to establish that he and his wife were very much in love. She was dead within I feel like the first five minutes of the show.

Jess:

Yeah, absolutely. They fridged the wife at the beginning.

Niq:

Absolutely. I'm just like wait a minute, like. But I mean, as the show goes on, you get like flashbacks and moments so you really get to understand their relationship. But like the show is like, oh my god, you're my soulmate, I love you so much. Pew, pew, she's gone and I'm just like, hey, hey, guys, let's slow down, let's slow down a bit.

Niq:

So his wife is murdered within the first five minutes of the show and then the show fast forwards a year later where he's like in the thick of things, in the thick of his grief and trying to figure out what his life looks like without his wife, and a famous activist is found dead and like people think that he's been like killed by the police because he's, you know, working to defund the police. His family's like it's murder, murder, murder. But the police think that it's suicide or maybe a drug overdose, and so initially he just gets kind of pulled in drug overdose. And so initially he just gets kind of pulled in. They're like, hey, can you work this case Because we, you know, we're having a PR crisis and you're trusted, and so, as he digs into and very much you're trusted in Black and we're dealing with Black people.

Jess:

That's very true.

Niq:

Yeah, they're like well, you're a Black person, go talk to those Black folks, go talk to the other Black people, go talk to those Black folks, go talk to the other Black people. And so, as he investigates the case because he does take it seriously he investigates it, I feel like, without bias, because everybody's like assuming oh well, you know what, he has a past and so he probably was probably an overdose or he probably was trying to kill himself. So he goes in with an open mind and he digs deeper and he finds that there's more to the case and he actually finds a serial killer which I'm like man, that's wild. Like imagine you're thinking that you're just like trying to solve a PR crisis and find out what happens to this one person and you stumble upon a serial killer who, if my, I think, has been killing people for 28 years.

Jess:

I know he's killed at the point of the show. He has killed 11 people and his goal is 12, but I don't know the exact amount of years. But yeah, it's been a long time.

Niq:

I'm pretty sure they said 28 years because he started when he was fairly young he did start killing people in, I think about, while he was college age.

Niq:

Yeah, and so, as he's hunting and dealing with the serial killer that he first has to convince people exist, he's also dealing with someone who is stalking his family and he doesn't know or understand why, but he's being stalk and I think I need to sneeze. Let's see, okay, it's gonna go, okay, uh, so he's dealing with a stalker and so he's kind of being like pulled in so many directions because, like the serial killer like is I feel like almost taunting him in some ways, you know, but so is this person who is like stalking him and he's, you know, trying to be a father to his kids and trying to work and so like he has a lot on his shoulders. I'm like man, how much, how much can one person take?

Jess:

and I also feel like at the beginning of the show. So at the end you realize that these are two different people, but while it's going on it's not clear sometimes who's doing what that's very true If the serial killer is the one stalking and talking him the whole time or if it's somebody different from his past. You kind of realize later that it's two separate things, but it does seem intertwined throughout a good portion of the show you know what?

Niq:

that is a very good point, because the first time I watched it yes, for a long time I thought that the serial killer. Because you find out who the serial killer is.

Niq:

Very early in the series. So it's not a surprise who the serial killer is. But I thought the serial killer was taunting him too, which I'm like. Why, if you've been doing all of this kind of in silence all of these years now, why are you messing with this man? And it turns out it was not even the serial killer, it was somebody else, although he and the serial killer do go toe to toe.

Niq:

They play a lot of mind games with each other. They are really mean to each other, and Of course they are, but like and I don't Like, maybe I should say this Like they get personal, oh, very personal. That's what I when I say they mean to each other. Like you, you've seen movies before where, like, a police officer is hunting a serial killer and they'll correspond and they'll play mind games. But these two men get very dirty and very personal and have conversations in front of other people I'm gonna call them civilians, because people who are not involved in the situation. They are having these conversations in front of civilians and I'm just like wait a minute. How do you guys not know that he's the serial killer? Look at how he's acting, look how he's talking to this man.

Jess:

The first time he came on screen before he interacted with a person. I'm like that's him. He looks like a serial killer he's got serial killer vibes like there's nothing you could do.

Niq:

There's nothing that man could do to get me to go to his house in a car with him in T-wear because I'm like you, exude serial killer he does, he really does, as a matter of fact, like, even like the last person that he captures that he needs to kill, to like fulfill his life's work. The serial killer, that lady did not trust him. No, yet how did she still get caught? Because she was like, she kept saying, like this guy, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, but she still got caught and I'm like man, you didn't even trust him she didn't.

Jess:

But the thing is that frustrated me about her is that she has really good instincts that she does not listen to, because she was like oh, you can't finish me, no, we're done, we're over. And she starts to walk out. She's about to walk away. Then she lets him charm her back into it, which doesn't feel right, because I'm like there's nothing charming about him. He's not charming, he's very creepy, he feels creepy. So I'm like I don't know how you let this man charm you into breakfast. Absolutely not.

Niq:

You know what it is. Dating is hard in DC. I've heard that dating in DC is really rough.

Jess:

You know, honestly, I think at every I don't know, probably, but dating is hard everywhere. I think it's like he catches her not wanting to be rude, Like some women have this really issue with being rude or being like, and so like he plays on that to me. You know he's like, oh well, just have breakfast and you can leave if you want after that. Or you know he's like, oh well, just have breakfast and you can leave if you want after that. Or you know, just making it seem like he did all this kind of stuff. And I think she does it not to be rude.

Jess:

And the same thing when he got her the job offer for her dream job, the Ritz Carlton to get her to the house. And he's like, oh, come over, I'll help you prepare, make you breakfast. And she's clearly like I don't know you well enough. And then he plays up all I was just trying to help you, I made these calls, got you this, you know. And so she's like, dang it, I can't be rude. And that's the only reason she goes, because her instincts at every turn told her no, right even to the point, like before she walks in the door.

Niq:

She's like if you don't hear from me in an hour, this is where I'm at now, did she know?

Niq:

that he had, like, messed with her phone and so she wasn't really calling people. She did not know, but she knew he was not to be trusted and she still let him get her and I'm like girl. That drove me crazy. I'm just going to be honest. I'm like girl. You could have lived. You could have lived. All you had to do was trust your instincts. But I've actually heard that before, like that men who tend to assault women, like they do, play on that women don't like to be rude and they men use it to their advantage. So we need to start being more rude.

Niq:

I don't know about that, but, um, so he matches with weakness, only strength right, he matches wits with the serial killer and that storyline comes to what we think of, the conclusion, but not quite a conclusion, and he kind of shifts his focus over to like the stalker. Did you see that twist coming?

Jess:

I saw it before, but it was late. I did not see it from the beginning. I can tell you when you found it.

Niq:

I'm going to tell you exactly when you figured it out when he went to see the. I don't know if it was the parole person or something as soon as she said.

Jess:

As soon as she said she was a street mom, I was like oh, it's Nancy.

Niq:

That is also what I figured it out too and so then, at that point I'm starting to like go back and say, hey, should I have seen this twist coming? I didn't see it, I couldn't find, I couldn't see it either.

Jess:

But you know, I kind of like that, because we usually don't get surprised, right, you know. So I kind of like I still feel like don't get surprised, right, you know. So I kind of like that. I still feel like I figured it out before most people would have figured it out.

Niq:

But I was like but okay, Good one, Good one. I think most people probably like figured it out, like at the cabin, yeah, Like you know inside the cabin.

Jess:

yeah, yeah, but I was like no, as soon as she said, nancy, because you do, we watch enough TV to know like a certain point in the show the killer has to have, or you know, that has to have been introduced already, even if you don't know who it is, they've had to be introduced. So, yeah, but yeah, that was a good job.

Niq:

It was a good job. Did you feel like she started being creepy once they got to the cabin?

Jess:

yeah, once she started being creepy, then her whole voice was creepy, and then when I watched the second time, she was creepy the whole time right, you just didn't know like yeah, but like once you got to the, it was, and I'm like I don't know if it was just because at that point I knew, okay, like this lady is bad news, but it just seemed like everything it's like her voice, her mannerisms, like everything seemed a little bit more sinister.

Niq:

And she's doing things like offering the kids hot chocolate, making them dinner and we're going to play board games. All of the stuff, but there's a sinister undertone to it. I just think maybe she's just a phenomenal actress.

Jess:

She is and her voice fit that character perfectly. There was a creepy kind of raspy quality to her voice that was like perfect for this character.

Niq:

Yeah, she did a good job. She really did a good job. And so ultimately, like you know, alex has to go and save his family from the stalker because the stalker has kind of outsmarted him and you know, everybody thinks he's the smartest, but the stalker, you know of outsmarted him and you know everybody thinks he's the smartest, but the stalker, you know, outsmarted him and they have his kids and he's, you know, having to reconcile that. And so this episode, like this season, was what? Eight episodes, yeah, how did you feel about the pacing? Because they did a lot.

Jess:

They did a lot. I honestly I feel like at certain points it was too slow, at certain points we didn't have enough information, so I feel like it was a little off. But then those last two episodes I feel like they were okay. That's where we really got a good pacing. I do think episode seven is perfect pacing of all the episodes. But there are moments where it feels a little bit slow and then there are still things that I feel like are kind of plot holes that never got resolved or weren't clearly explained. I don't know if that has to do with pacing, but yeah Do you have an example of that.

Jess:

Yes, and maybe and I was hoping, because I want to ask you, because I'm like, maybe I'm just confused. I hope I'm confused and I just missed it, but like, so the stalker is upset with Alex Cross because she has these two children that she's kind of adopted off the streets. They refer to her as her street mom and one of them went to jail because Alex testified in her case and said that she was basically unfixable, and so at the time it seems like he says that because she's had such a traumatic childhood, she killed this man and she has no kind of remorse or anything like that. But we find out later that it's because she was being abused in prison by someone named Barbara Whelan. Do we ever see that character Like? I tried to look for her. Who is Barbara Whelan? I couldn't figure out who that was, okay.

Niq:

Do you remember the blonde woman who tried to kill Alex?

Jess:

That's her. Yes, that's Barbara Wheeler.

Niq:

Yes what I did not understand and I watched it twice and I still somehow missed it. Why was she like I? Why was she killing? Why was she trying to kill Alex? Was somebody paying her? I know there was like a letter in her room that said kill Alex Cross, but I missed, like where that letter came from.

Jess:

That that letter came from the serial killer. No, hold on. No, no, no.

Niq:

No, it came from the stalker. They were trying to punish her also because she abused.

Jess:

Deidre, I'm sorry that didn't come from my bad, that didn't come from the serial killer, that came from Miss Nancy. But why? Because she was the one abusing.

Niq:

Deidre, no, no, no, no. But why would Barbara do it? I assume that there was a threat in that note.

Jess:

I know the outside of the note just said kill Alex Cross and there was something inside the envelope. So I assume whatever that was was the blackmail or the threat to get her to do it. And they put blanks in the gun or misfires in the gun so that when she shot at Whitney he would kill her.

Niq:

I understood that. I knew that they were punishing her. I knew why they chose her, but I didn't know why she was willing to kill him.

Jess:

That's what I did not understand, I assume that whatever we didn't see inside of that envelope was the threat or the blackmail.

Niq:

Okay, do you have another plot hole?

Jess:

Let me see um okay, nothing I can think of right now.

Niq:

Yeah so yeah, that was my question. I'm like why?

Jess:

is she? Yeah, I just okay. So what, what? Okay. So then it wasn't clear that that was barbara whelan to me and I was looking for her the second time. I'm like who the hell is this? Because I was trying to, I'm like, is it the lady that's in the wheelchair? That's like the judge and I'm like, well, she used to be a warden or something. I'm like what is connected? Because, okay, why were they after her? Why were they after who Was she? The?

Niq:

prosecutor. Yeah, okay, yeah, like Kowaleski or something, was that her name. I don't know her name, but yes, yeah, she helped prosecute.

Jess:

she was prosecuted in the case, okay alright, so some of those little details is kind of running together. They just weren't as clear to me. But okay, I'm glad we're talking about it.

Niq:

It's because there were two stories running concurrently and at that point, once again, you don't know if the stalker is not the serial killer.

Niq:

Like you don't understand alex, you're pulled in so many directions because alex is also being pulled in so many directions yeah so, yeah, I, I can understand, because, also, like, I had to watch the show two times to understand, like, how kayla fit into the story. So kayla is like his friend, and then they worked on a case together and now she's like in the fbi, um, because I'm just like, okay, like she's like pops up and does whatever he, she, he asked her to do. Hey, can you go get this information? Can you do this, can you do that? And I'm like where, like why is she doing all of this stuff? But it's because, like, they used to be really close, they used to work together, um, and now she's in the FBI. So I guess she kind of has access to more information when they worked together before.

Jess:

She was in the FBI then and he was just consulting on a case with her.

Niq:

But yeah, yeah, she's been in the FBI okay, I didn't understand that because she said, hey, you know we worked on that case together, but you're the national hero. That's what I didn't realize that she was already in the FBI.

Jess:

Sometimes the different stuff in private. Yeah, she's always been in the FBI, the whole time.

Niq:

Yeah, but she does a lot for him. I just feel like, do you have an actual job that you're supposed to do?

Jess:

But okay. So let me tell you the very last scene with her and Bobby Trey. She does a lot for him, but she's no dummy, I think, the whole time she's also working an angle. She's also very intelligent, but she's also because how she presents herself, I think she comes across as unassuming, so like she has end goals too. So what she's doing is also helping her.

Niq:

She does. Yeah, I also helping her she does. Yeah, I agree, but you don't see it to the last minute, right? Yeah, I, oh, yeah. At the end, when she was like talking to bobby tray, I said, oh, is she gonna be the villain next season?

Jess:

because she is shady and here's the thing, I think it can go either way, like I'm like, I feel like it's intentionally we don't know if she's shady or she was working another angle from the beginning. Either way, she's working another angle from the beginning. Either way, she's working another angle from the beginning. But it's like is she giving him this deal to get a bigger fish, which I feel like she might be, but I think it leaves it intentionally ambiguous, so we don't know. So, with that being said, with Kayla and Bobby Trey at the end, when she's offering him that deal and the first part of the deal is just so that fanboy doesn't get the credit that he wants so bad, and that, I think, is between her and Alex.

Jess:

The second part of the deal, where she gets all the dirt on the politicians, I'm like she's either going to go after them directly because she is part of the FBI and that's who would go after them, you know. So she's like this whole time you know what I mean like working the angle, like yeah, I'm gonna help you with your case because it's gonna help me make some bigger cases, which could be one angle and I ain't mad at her about that or I got all these secrets, on this hollywood, um, you know hollywood dc elite who are very powerful people that I can use at my will and I think that's what she's doing.

Niq:

And the reason why I said that is because she's like she offered bobby tray like a big sum of money and I'm just like, hmm, like I feel like if it was like the FBI, if it was more sanctioned, they would have offered him like more freedom and not necessarily cash in hand.

Jess:

I don't know why cash in hand sounds like CIA to me okay, but this is what it is, though I don't think it's that clear, because the money that she's offering him is just. She's just going to unfreeze the money that she froze, that the fanboy was paying him. Remember, she has his money.

Niq:

I thought they. I know that they froze the fanboy's money, but I did not realize that the money, that that's where they were getting the money from. I know yeah, I know that Bobby Trey's wire didn't go through, so she's just going to unfreeze his money.

Jess:

But he has access to the millions that the fanboy was paying him after he does his 24 months. So I'm like. So either way, like you know, wouldn't it be nice to have money All she's got because she's in, that all she's got to do is unfreeze that money once he gets out, because she froze it. She's the one that froze it, but she can do it and again, to me that still could be, and probably I don't know what the FBI has latitude to do, but I feel like that still could be within her job and just-.

Niq:

You're right. You're right. Yeah, if she's just unfreezing that money, then yes, that does make sense. I thought that she was coming up, coming out and I'm like that, that sounds shady but yeah, cause.

Jess:

Bobby Trey says is this the FBI or is this you? And she said money, don't know where it came from. She did say that and I love that phrase. I was like girl. I definitely mean like her even more, though I'm not even gonna lie.

Niq:

I was like all right, I do love that he works within a team and he's not like so often when there's like the tortured genius character. Like he stands head and shoulders above like the other people he works with in this show he very much, even though he's good at what he does, he is around people who are also good at what they do, who are also, like, well known and respected for what they do, and I liked that. I liked that. You know, I really enjoyed that. So the show one of the things that the show tackled and talked about a lot was the relationship between, like, the police and the community, and I think that's really interesting because alex and his best friend, who's also his partner, their childhood best friends to john they're both dc policemen but they are actually from dc. They still live in the community that they police and they see themselves as different because of those things.

Jess:

Yeah, they see themselves as part of the community.

Niq:

But the community doesn't see them that way.

Jess:

I mean, do Black people have the latitude of seeing police officers as part of their community? They don't.

Niq:

But I thought that that was very interesting. They don't, but I thought that that was very interesting. It's a very interesting perspective because they see themselves very differently than how the community sees them and they have a very complicated relationship. It's very much like when the community feels like they are doing what they are supposed to do, they are civil with them, cordial at best. At the slightest hint that they feel like they are not doing what they're supposed to do, they are vicious towards them. I honestly respect that a lot.

Jess:

Is that not our job, but to hold our community leaders accountable? I that a lot. Is that not our job, but to hold our community leaders accountable.

Niq:

I have a lot of respect for it because, honestly, if you look at it, the police are in a position of power. It's like if they don't keep their foot on their neck, are they really going to get what they want and what they need? They were from the very beginning saying hey, amir, is the the activist that was murdered? And they're like he was murdered. He was murdered and they're like no, it was probably an overdose or it was probably a suicide. And then, like at the most, they were like okay, well, maybe it was gang activity and gang related.

Niq:

And like the community, they're like no, you know, he's no longer involved in drugs, he's a community gang affiliate for years the police literally like had to be drugged by their fingernails to acknowledge that this man was murdered and it was not related to the community. And the question is, how many times does that happen across the country?

Jess:

That felt so real to me. You know that they would have to, Because I do think that in policing, particularly in America, like they come up with a narrative and then they try to prove themselves right, and I think the juxtaposition with them and Alex and 2John being actual detectives looking for evidence, you know it's just very clear and present, because I'm like no, they get a narrative, they get a story and they try to prove themselves right, especially when it comes to black people. It's very hard for them to see outside of their own prejudice. Right, they wanted to make this a story about gang activity and drugs so bad because of what they think about black people.

Niq:

And that's the funny thing is, oh, even though the people, even the people making the conjecture, a lot of times were also black, because, like there was like the black female police officer who worked I think she said she either worked in the gang unit or a lot of times that time.

Jess:

That time because the people who are making the conjecture are mainly the police chief, who's a white woman. She is the main opposition, because it is not convenient for her for it to be anything other than gang activity.

Jess:

Because she's running for mayor, so she's trying to shut the situation down and because she is a white woman who does not see black people as fully human and does not care what happens to this man. There's the other two female cops who I can't really tell what race they are. They could be are they could be white, they could be something else, like the one that was pregnant, the one that was pregnant. And then there's one with a crinkly hair who's taller than the Black woman. The Black woman is the only Black person who is like no, this is also gang activity. There's not a lot of Black people saying that.

Niq:

I guess when I say a lot, he's giving direct evidence on why it doesn't make sense and she's arguing with him.

Jess:

She is. But again, that argument started before she came into the room with the police chief. To me she's very much like at that point. She changes in the show. Eventually she changes over the Black woman I don't know her name. That argument that we're going to keep this certain narrative starts with the police chief, the white female police chief. She is very strong about it. To me, when the Black woman comes in and is like oh, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck kind of attitude of attitude I'm like she's toeing the line that the, that the police chief is already set and so I do place more blame on her one. She is the one in the most powerful position. Then you've got the pregnant lady who I can't tell exactly what her position is. She, to me she seems like she's higher than alex and um, yeah, I think she's the captain, okay so she's the captain, all Okay, so she's the captain.

Jess:

And again, even though she knows something is off and we know later on that she knows more than we knew, she knew she's still like, well, okay, you're really going to have to prove it for us to go, even though she knows, what the police chief is saying doesn't make any sense considering the evidence, and what Alex and 2John are saying makes the most sense. So that opposition. They're facing opposition constantly and that's the other thing. It's like to be looking for the truth. Trying to find a serial killer, trying to find evidence is already hard, but every single step of the way the system is fighting them.

Niq:

Yes, not just the system, the community is also fighting them too, and I think that was the thing that was slightly frustrating to me, because his family, like, while I understood the anger, like he had to go visit them too many times to get all that information he needed, he did. I'm just like, just say everything. Also, here's a question that you may not be able to answer what does take place in present day? Yeah, I think so. Okay, you think it does take place in present day. So then this is my question is well, let's go, let's talk about what I feel like is a plot hole.

Niq:

Okay, so um Amir is dead. They're investigating his uh murder. They find out that his last phone call was to one of his friends, tavio. They're trying to go talk to Tavio. You know about what the message was, tavio. They try to go talk to Tavio. You know about what the message was. Tavio ends up getting killed and they're trying to get to Tavio's phone right, tavio's baby mama. She finds the phone and she goes on the run trying to get this information to someone who can help. If it's present day, why did you not post the audio on social media?

Jess:

Literally, literally said that, literally said that, like yesterday, I did my recent watch with a friend and both were like why didn't she just email it? Why did she post it on social media? Why did she email it to the reporter? Why is she going on the run and having to give this phone in person?

Niq:

I would have sent that message to everybody. You could not in person. I would have sent that message to every body so that you could not ignore it. I would have texted to everybody, emailed it. It would have been on Twitter. It would have been all over social media, everywhere. That's what I'm like. That's why I asked Did they say this?

Jess:

To your point I didn't even know.

Niq:

Anybody mentioned social media.

Jess:

That phone did look old.

Niq:

But the little boy had an iPad.

Jess:

The little boy had an iPad, yeah, but the phone Tapio's phone did not have a big enough screen. It just looked really old. I'm like was it a flip phone or was it one of Nokia's? Yeah, it did look old.

Niq:

I'm like, instead of going on the run, like the same day you got the phone, you could have sent that message out to everybody, literally everybody, and you wouldn't have had to go on the run if you had text that thing to yourself when you found that phone and put it right back in his body, you would still be alive, raising your child, that's very true, that's very true, so that honestly was like and looking at her, the body of her dead boyfriend, but yeah, you, but you know enough to take the phone.

Niq:

You were thinking strategically to a certain point, but you know like I would have. This is what I would have done. I would have sent the message to myself and took the phone to the police. Let the police, if they're going to investigate, let them investigate. But I also have a copy of the message now that I can send and show to any and everybody. That part of the story did not make sense to me.

Jess:

It did not make sense to me either, and I guess the only explanation I can is that you're grieving and not feeling safe, because Cross does say something to the fact that she's going someplace that's familiar because she runs away to a hotel that's like in her neighborhood, and so he's like, well, she's going to a place that's familiar and close, someplace that she would have seen throughout her childhood and been comfortable. Maybe that's why your decisions are not making sense, because, yeah, I would have just emailed it to the. Even if you just wanted to send it to the reporter, I would have emailed it to the reporter.

Niq:

So I saw people doing during the show online dating, but I did not see anybody on social media, like I didn't see anybody reference Twitter. I know social media existed if there was iPads, if there was online dating, but it's almost like social media did not exist in this particular world.

Jess:

That's true, you don't see anything on social media. Even the protest and activism would have been on social media.

Niq:

Right In that respect, james Patterson. These books were coming out in the 90s. That's why I'm like what year is this? But there are modern things happening.

Jess:

Yeah, the clothes age.

Niq:

So it doesn't make sense for there not to be social media. But I guess maybe in this particular world there is no social media because no one referenced social media at all and social media would have kept that girl alive. Also, I also did not understand why Tavio, who was Amir's best friend, why he didn't tell the police about the message when they came to interview him initially, and he was with the family and he's trying to convince the family I'm sorry, the family at this point is trying to convince the police that he's been murdered, because this is their first time coming in Alex and Tujan and they're talking to the family, you know, because at this point they've been told hey, it's probably an overdose or a suicide, and the family is trying to convince him, trying to convince him, trying to convince them that there's a murder. Tavio is right there in the room, literally right there in the room. He could have played the message for them right then. Why did he not do that?

Jess:

That's how strong his distrust of the police are. He was not going to give them any information about anything, and I think that's true for the family too, as to why they had to go back so many times to get any information.

Niq:

Did he play the message for the family? I don't think he did Once again.

Jess:

And the other thing about it is that because he's going, because, okay, so Amir is gay and Amir thinks his mother does not know, right? So the sister and Tavio are both trying to keep this information from the mother because they think the mother doesn't know, but of course the mother knows yes, the mother knows, but it's not like in the message.

Niq:

He's like hey, I'm gay, help me.

Jess:

He doesn't mention his sexuality in the message he said I went out on a date with this dude and I think he gave me something. He drugged me. Oh then.

Niq:

I didn't hear that part, yeah.

Jess:

That's how you find out he's gay when you first hear the voicemail and he's like I went out on a date with this dude, something's off, you know, come get me. He's telling Tabio to come get him and that's why how Bobby Trey finds him. Oh, I didn't know he was gay until the mama was like well, you know he gay Once. They played the voicemail because that's how he got them. He got both of them from dating sites, just different dating sites.

Niq:

I know he got them from dating sites, but when I heard the voicemail, all I heard was somebody put something in my something. He said he was on a date. Okay, so then I completely missed that part, because when the mama was like he gay, I was like what?

Jess:

So that's also part of the reason why he's not sharing that information with them, because he's still trying to protect him, because they are friends.

Niq:

Yeah, that's his best friend, but okay, so let's say he did not want the mom to know. Why did he not play the message for the sister, like I? Just there was way too much segmented information for me, for people who swear that they want this murder solved it's because they're not thinking straight and they are they just have this extreme distrust for the police.

Jess:

But yes, it does not make sense to both be pushing the police to solve a murder and not giving them vital information that would help solve the murder.

Niq:

Right, but I honestly feel like that's kind of realistic.

Jess:

I agree. That's why it doesn't bother me.

Niq:

It's frustrating though it's frustrating, but there is a realism, because Black people have a very complicated relationship with the police. We want to be protected like any other community, but we don't feel like we are protected, and so you never know what interaction is going to go badly, even when you're the victim. Do you know how many times white people call the police because they're being attacked or they're being assaulted or they're being robbed and the police come and shoot them or shoot their husband or shoot their son?

Jess:

Do you know how many times I've had so many conversations with moms who are like I was scared to call the police because you know my son has an issue, a mental health issue, and then they won't? I'm afraid that they're going to come and kill him, you know. And so they don't call the police when they need help. And that's why that interaction, as frustrating as it is, it makes perfect sense to me, given Black people in America's relationship with the police, because you don't know what you can trust them with, what you can't, what they will use against you, and that's why they're so closed mouth.

Niq:

Right Now. Okay, so while we're talking about people going complicated relationships with the police, so there's a scene where Alex is at a dinner party and these are like the fancier Black people, these are like the bougie DC Black blacks and he's like had a little dinner party and he gets into it with one of the party goers who I feel like is pressing him unnecessarily hard about being a police officer. He was like here's the thing was Alex's reaction okay, it was not. Yeah, he has anger issues. He does, which makes you seem even crazier. When people are already saying you shouldn't be a cop and then you show you have anger issues, it makes you look even crazier. But I have complicated feelings about the police. I'm not going to sit at a table with a cop and be like oh my God, how are you even a cop? How is that even a productive conversation?

Jess:

He wasn't trying to have a productive conversation, he was trying to provoke him.

Niq:

And he did a good job he did. I'm just like this is weird. Who does this at a dinner party?

Jess:

There are a lot of pissing contests in this show. There's so many, and that's one of them, and that's another reason why that scene definitely irritated me too. But at the same time, you know it's real because it's like anytime men get a chance to say mine is bigger, they're going to, and he literally says that at the beginning. I love that scene.

Niq:

Though that scene was hilarious because I said the same. Though that scene was hilarious because I said the same thing. That man said I'm like you got your thing in his face.

Jess:

He had it so close to his face. That was hilarious to me. So that was a pissing contest and he was trying to provoke him. I don't know why, because I think he just had to be intimidated by all this. That is a huge hunk of man. So I get it. I don't care what you do for a living, you cannot compare. But so I think you know he just wanted to get under his skin and he did.

Jess:

The issue I have with that scene is that that's the one unrealistic response that I think we got from Alex, and not even the anger or the fighting, because that makes sense in the context of what you know that he's going through.

Jess:

But when he points out this example, it said with the police, if you, if you, something happens to you and the police and somebody is about to beat you, you know what? Who are you going to call? I hate that question for the, when they ask that question to black people, because that is always an issue for black people and I'm like and you, as a black person, know that Black people always struggle as to whether or not they can call the police when they're in danger. We just talked about that and I'm like so that's not a weapon you could throw up against us. That's some dumb thing white people say to us because they don't understand that every time we have to have an interaction with the police, even if we know we're the victim, we have to go through a process of is it worth it? Would it be better if I just get robbed and then wait till the robber's gone than have to deal with the possibility of dying from the police because the robber might just take my stuff?

Niq:

Right Police do not prevent crimes and they have a really really, really low solve rate also. So, like I think, yeah, so I agree, who's going to help you if somebody's assaulting you? Probably my cousins, honestly, for me, honestly.

Jess:

You know that's a wrestle every time. Every time I've been in a situation where I've had to call the police. That is something that you wrestle with literally. I don't know if you remember when I was living with that um and that, and then we were and we had that person in in the shed behind the house. Yeah, we didn't know it was a person, we just saw the light flashing.

Jess:

So I was in a neighborhood that was like predominantly white. We had one friend on the street behind us that we knew, um and and that, and that was a black man. I we called the police first and we called that person next, do you know? So we, you know they stopped our friend on the way to come to us. The very police that showed up at the house stopped to pull him over first before he got to us. It is always a struggle every time and, yes, we are in an emergency, trying to think through things, to think if it's worth it so like. That question is ridiculous, as a Black person, to ask another Black person you already know why haven't you told the police that you work for and work with that you've got a stalker for that same reason.

Niq:

So, yeah, I the show. I enjoyed the show overall. I did. I thought it was a good. I thought it was a good story. It's interesting, like what, what they're gonna do, like if they get a season two, because like, is it realistic that he runs up on another serial killer or you like? You know what I'm saying like what season two?

Niq:

oh really. So I'm like what is the what is realistic? Is he going to get called away to investigate something interesting? Or you know, like I'm how many, how many serial killers are going to come to DC? Or maybe like what's going to happen? He's already done a big child abduction case because that's how he got famous before. Now he's done this serial killer. So I'm like what's going to be? Like the major overarching, you know story of season two, what seems realistic? Because the show is very much based in reality.

Jess:

But there are so many Alex Cross books, though, so I think they can go in really whatever direction. Yeah, I'm looking at the list. There's a whole bunch, there's a lot of places he can go. I think like he could like. It doesn't necessarily it could be, it could oh goodness, I'm so low for my words but they can continue in the direction of serial killers, and you could just have a different kind of serial killer, or it could be a different kind of crime.

Niq:

Do you think he's going to get pulled? If it's another serial killer, is he being pulled as a consultant or another serial killer just happens to operate in DC? Because, honestly, nowadays, like serial killers are so far and few in between, I don't know if it's technology it's harder to not get caught these days, or if people are finding other ways to let out their violent, sick tendencies in other ways. I don't know.

Jess:

So let me pose something to you, and I still don't know what direction we're going to go in season two. I think they're going to pick up with something with the woman that we saw at the end, and that's going to be one storyline, and then, of course, there's probably going to be some other crimes that he's solving. But let me pose it to you this way they would have never caught this particular serial killer if Alex hadn't really pushed it. You know, they would have just written this off as gang violence and went on Like are there ones that are going undetected because of the victims they choose, because I think that's always been true for them?

Niq:

Now that has. I agree that, historically, like, the most prolific serial killers usually choose people we don't care about, like homeless people, hookers, gay men, and when I say people we don't care about, I mean like society at large, not me personally. But you know, like it's always like a lot of times a marginalized group of people, you know, and they'll operate over wide areas, like truck drivers. I think I've seen, like you know, truck drivers who like pick up, like prostitutes, and so it's hard to tie them together. But I just think, oh, like I feel, like in the 70s and 80s, like serial killers. It seemed like they were like popping up, like crazy.

Jess:

Ok, so here's my other thing. I don't know that I agree with you that there are less. I hope you're right. I don't know that I agree with you that there are less. I don't think that they're necessarily less. One of the other things that I think this show points out well is an issue that I personally have with policing and how we train police, and that that there are not like Alex is good, because he also has that additional benefit of being a forensic psychologist and studying people and learning the motivations of people. I feel like you could just run up the ranks as a regular cop and then eventually become detective. There's no training on how to really find things. That's why we also get the tunnel vision of. This is what I think happens. So let me prove myself right instead of let me look for the truth. So again, are things just not being detected because they're not being connected? Because they're not because because police get a particular narrative and then they try to prove themselves right.

Niq:

I don't know how did all of a sudden like it? Well, I think serial killers really are something like the FBI usually does, I think, but it just seems like Not identified as serial killers.

Jess:

Is my point Right I?

Niq:

don't know.

Jess:

Police work is not good enough to identify that.

Niq:

Maybe it's the loud. Serial killers are a thing of the past. You know what I'm saying.

Jess:

The ones who are potentially trying to taunt you, taunt the police and that kind of stuff and mess with the ones who are intentionally trying to taunt you, taunt the police and that kind of stuff and mess with you, or who are very ritualistic about it. That's our idea of what it is, but it's really. If you've killed what? Five or more people, I just think that they're not being connected or detected.

Niq:

Because they're doing it in a way that's more quiet.

Jess:

I don't know if they're not being connected or detected Because they're doing it in a way that's more quiet I don't know if they're intentionally being quiet or just not in something like we very much see serial killer as who this guy is like, the guy Ramsey. That's how we see them, that's how we see all of them. But in reality, what if they're just, if it's not that fancy and ritualistic, and so the police are not putting it together as such, but that's essentially what it is.

Niq:

I don't know, and someone needs to come out with a documentary what happened to the serial killer, and let me know I'll watch it. So, holistically, is there anything else you want to talk about? Um, as far as the show, I know we I want to do some, some deep dives next, but do you think, holistically, we talked about the show?

Jess:

well I was. Overall, I think that the show is really good. I like that it brings up a lot of the issues that we talk about and just how difficult it would be to be a Black police officer and have to deal with the two in the middle of two worlds, and especially to be one with scruples. You know what I mean, because we kind of see that him juxtapose the other Black female police officer who is like I'm just going to get along until she doesn't. I like that overall police officer who is like I'm just going to get along until she doesn't. You know, I like that Overall. Like I said, some weird issues with pacing on the show, but I feel like they catch up and they make up for it. It's still overall a really good quality show and I like the writing. I think that's all, but yeah overall really enjoyable.

Niq:

Yeah, really I think that they did a good job with the show. The story was interesting. You know the characters are characters that I care about, so you know I want to see you know what happens next. I enjoy, like I said, I enjoyed the setting. I feel like they really gave a lot of love and a lot of respect to DC, so I really enjoyed it and I would definitely definitely watch a season two. I'm like we just really have been picking like really good shows a lot.

Jess:

I'm so glad that you enjoyed this. I was a little worried about it.

Niq:

I was like really yeah, no, I knew like I was excited because, like I told you, like I watched the Alex Cross movie with Tyler Perry, because I did you watch Morgan Freeman? Yes, I did, but that was so long ago. Yeah.

Jess:

I don't. Tyler Perry, did you watch the one with Morgan Freeman?

Niq:

Yes, I did, but that was so long ago, I don't remember, it was so long ago and so the one with Tyler Perry. It just pissed me off. I'm not going to lie.

Jess:

It pissed me off. Before I watched it I was like no, no, and I'm not a person who's read the books but I still know that this is an important character to a lot of people.

Niq:

It is it really. It really is. It is. He is an important character because, like, like when I was a child, like reading these books, like a famous like black detective who's like a psychologist, like that's, that was like not normal you know, yeah, so no, yeah, he's definitely perfect for it, and not just because I think he's perfect for everything I do agree um his person.

Niq:

It's so hard for his personality not to shine through. Yes, whatever character he plays and it's not that he's he plays the same person because he doesn't play the same person. But there is just an underlining part of his personality that always shines through and I just love when I see it.

Jess:

I love when I see it peek through. It's like him picking on 2John and bringing up the Old Spice thing, because Isaiah Mustafa plays 2John. It was the Old Spice guy Him saying oh, you smell like my balls in Old Spice. You get a little bit of that, and it does. You know, I'm a huge Leverage fan. Leverage is one of my favorite shows. So yeah, I know you say like you still see glimpses of his personality, because I just don't feel like that character would have been that he played. Leverage would have been as dynamic if anybody else had played it Absolutely not I. I don't. And I think, because there's a genuineness that comes across with Aldous Hodge that is wonderful, and there's a blackness that comes across with him, no matter what he does, because I'm like I don't care what you say, they wrote that character general. He happened to be black but he was like but you're going to feel that I'm a black man in this. And then it made the show better it did, it did.

Niq:

Yeah, that he. I love Lever do me too. It's on my yearly watch. Like I have to watch leverage every year, yeah, yearly. You know what? The funny thing I have so many shows on my yearly. Like half of the tv I watch every year is our shows that I'm re-watching, so so it's like I can't watch any show more than once a year because I have so many on my list. I'm like a huge re-watcher.

Jess:

I'm a huge re-watcher too, and Leverage is probably the show I watch the most honestly.

Niq:

Yeah.

Jess:

I do love it.

Niq:

I do love it. It's yeah, I love an ensemble cast, me too, you know.

Jess:

Experts that are really good at whatever they do. Yes To come together to do something.

Niq:

Do you want to come together to do crimes?

Jess:

Or do you want to come together to save the world, or a little bit of both?

Niq:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love an anti-hero with a heart of gold. Oh yeah, but the next episode. Honestly, I'm really excited because I really want to talk about relationships and Alex's relationships. I think there's a lot. There's a lot in there, see you next episode.