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Average Relationships

• Niq & Jess • Episode 8

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What would drive someone with a painful medical condition to choose a physically demanding job over a more stable, comfortable one? We unpack the perplexing choices made by Angela in "Average Joe" and explore how these decisions impact her family dynamics. Angela’s journey invites us to question her motivations and how her condition, polymyalgia, shapes her decisions around finances and health. We also scrutinize the tension between Angela and Joe, as they navigate financial stress and parental responsibilities, probing the reluctance to pursue avenues that could ease their burdens.

The tangled web of relationships continues with an analysis of Joe and his wife’s evolving dynamic alongside the unexpected partnership of Leon and Kathy. While Joe battles with the weight of family legacy and unexpected betrayals, Leon and Kathy find solace and growth in the world of crime. Their unconventional journey through lawlessness offers comedic and heartwarming moments, revealing how shared adversity can strengthen bonds and prompt personal evolution. This exploration delves into the intricacies of human connections under pressure and the unexpected paths to understanding and love.

As we turn our lens on the character of Touch, the emotional landscape shifts towards addiction, guilt, and redemption. His struggle with substance abuse and stagnation in his career paints a poignant picture of personal turmoil. A devastating encounter with a grieving grandmother forces Touch to confront his own demons, laying bare the weight of unresolved trauma. Through Touch’s experiences and relationships, we reflect on the heavy themes of loss and the search for redemption, while also offering a glimpse into future discussions about complex characters in the series. Join us as we unravel these narratives and explore the emotional depths of "Average Joe.

Contact Niq & Jess

Niq:

Hi guys, welcome back to our next episode. I'm your host, nick, and I'm Jess, and today we're going to dive deeper into Average Joe by discussing some of the relationships and their evolutions across these crime papers. Yes, so, jessica, who do you want to discuss first?

Jess:

So Angela? I said I ended the last episode by saying Angela gets on my nerves. So let's talk about Angela and Joe. So I do want to say why Angela gets on my nerves.

Jess:

One I feel like Angela don't want nothing in life, like she keeps trying to convince Joe not to go after this money when it's not even like they desperately need this money. You know they desperately need this money and not just for like to have a nice lifestyle. But she's also sick, she's got polymyalgia, she's in pain, she's not getting the best care it doesn't seem and that money would make a huge difference in her life personally. And she keeps trying to convince him oh, we were fine, we were fine, but they weren't, they were just barely scraping by. She was in pain all the time.

Jess:

She's working at this diner, which is a very physical job, and she's got a physical illness and it doesn't make sense to me. So one of the things I'm saying and this may be just me misunderstanding her diagnosis of polymyalgia and what all that does, but I relate to fibromyalgia, which means pain all the time for no reason. She had a job as a paralegal. That's where she started and she quit her job when she got sick and went from being a paralegal where you sit down for a good portion of your day, or it's a desk heavy job, to a very physical on your feet for eight 12 hours type of job. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. So, like I get like, sometimes you have an illness that means that you can no longer do the job that you were doing before.

Niq:

So I don't know if there's a mental component to this that maybe made it challenging for her, but it does not in any way, shape or form make any sense to me to go to a very physical job when this is an illness that just causes you pain and flare ups. For no reason I would have chose a temp agency, like I would have went to like a temp office job. Because I can understand, like paralegals they, like lawyers, probably work a lot of hours and if she's having really bad days there may be days where she can't go in so she's being inconsistent. I can understand giving up the paralegal job, but becoming a waitress does not make sense to me.

Jess:

I would find a work from home job, exactly.

Niq:

You know, I would find a work from home job, I would find like some sort of temp office job. I would actually be applying for disability if I was in her shoes. But I understand she wants the ability to make money because they're trying to give their child a certain lifestyle and I don't even think that they're living necessarily beyond their means no, I don't think so but they're trying to make sure that their child has opportunities. She got into Carnegie Mellon, which is a really good school, but they're trying to make sure that their child has opportunities. She got into Carnegie Mellon, which is a really good school, so they're going to have to pay that tuition. So I understand her wanting to make money because they do have financial obligations and Joe can't do it on his own. But I just think her strategies. They don't make sense.

Jess:

They don't make sense, and that's my point. No, I always understand a woman wanting to make money, because I don't believe in relying on a man financially, but period, I don't believe in that. But it's the way she's going about it. Yes, a work-from-home job would have made sense, something of comparable income. So now that you've come down off the job that you went to school for you have to go to school for it to be a paralegal You're making less money. You're working a physical job that's physically demanding, making less money and still the long hours. So what did you gain? Like, even if you had to take a pay cut, but, like you said, a work from home job, trying to get something that's decent. Because, yeah, I get why you need. You don't even have to explain to me why you need to make money. Of course you need to make money.

Jess:

They're not so well off that she could. I don't think they were ever in a position where she could have not worked unless she was getting disability money. So I get her having to work, but I just feel like her decisions, on top of the illness that she couldn't help, are just bringing them down. So then her response to not wanting this money doesn't make sense to me. At every stage she keeps trying to say, oh, we're fine, I can go to the doctor, it's fine. And I feel like she is lying. You are not fine, you are in pain.

Jess:

I feel like she does not admit to herself when she's actually having a flare up. There's a few times where I think she's having flare ups and she's pretending like she's not or she's saying that she's just stressed. But I'm like, but this is the type of illness that stress exacerbates it and you are under a lot of stress, so you are having flare ups. Take your freaking medicine, go get your. You know what I mean. Like, go get your medicine, make sure you always have your medicine.

Jess:

She just frustrates me and then I think she blames Joe for things that he cannot help. Again, like I said before, this situation is dumped in his lap and I just feel like I don't know. I guess I can't say how I would be in this situation, but in my mind I would be a little bit more understanding. And you know me, I'm not one that's particularly understanding towards men, but I me, I'm not one that's particularly understanding towards men, but I would be understanding in this situation because I feel like this was not his choice. You know, like you didn't go out and do something stupid and now I have to deal with the consequences.

Niq:

Your father dropped this on us so my issue with angela is that she's weak, and I don't mean I don't mean physically, I mean I feel like she's mentally weak, and the reason why I say that is because she whines a lot.

Jess:

That's probably it.

Niq:

She whines a lot and she doesn't, a lot of times, have anything to contribute. I feel like she's weak because in the very beginning she said we should not be a part of this, we should not be doing this. Well then, you stand on that and you take your child and you go somewhere else, right, but instead of taking a stand in doing that, she just sits around and whines and complains. Whenever things don't go the way their way. When, when it looks like things are, are you know they're making progress, or they find a little bit of money or something goes good, she's all like oh, okay, yes, yes, yes. But as soon as anything bad happens see, I told you guys we shouldn't be doing this but you, even when she's like okay, you know what, I'm gonna be on board, let's do this. She still has nothing to contribute, nothing. She has no good ideas.

Niq:

That's why no, that's why she should have been gone. She is literally dead weight and even though I don't respect the way that Joe handled the situation because, like I said, I felt like he made the money in fulfilling his father's destiny, his priority over his wife I do believe he really loves her. I do too. He absolutely, really really loves her. Don't believe he really loves her? I do, he absolutely really really loves her, but I just to me. Their marriage devolved over the course of the situation and it was both of their faults, oh yeah oh yeah, oh yeah and and yeah, like I, I do think that he loves her.

Jess:

I don't think it's that black and white. Like I do think there's. Certainly. I think there's a lot of things driving joe. I do think that, like I, I agree with you that some of this is just to probably prove himself and be what his father always wanted him to be. Some of it is the money and the life that that can afford and probably some ego in there on how you would feel if you were the kind of man who had $10 million. But I also think he still thinks that part this money also will help him protect and provide for his family. I don't think that those things are all. I think it's all in there together Because I do think he loves his family, he loves his daughter. His daughter gets on his nerves, but his daughter gets on everybody's nerves.

Jess:

And so he still wants her to have the best life possible. So I think all of those things are motivating him honestly.

Niq:

And so to skip to the end of the show, um, after all of the events, like his wife makes the decision to take his daughter and leave. At that point and at right. And that drives me crazy, because it's like why are you taking a stand once everything is done Right? Why did you not take a stand in the beginning? I felt like you left once all the danger was gone, because it was easy.

Jess:

Once all the danger is gone. I don't know that they I don't think they ever get, no, they never get all the money. But you've got $1 million and you've got the initial $100K, so like they had $60K of that, and then they'll have to split up that million with everybody else. So now you've gotten a large sum of money A little bit less than $400,000. You know but still a large sum of money to them. That's a large sum of money. And and all the criminals, as far as you know, at this point are dead. And now you leave. That's why I said she don't want nothing, she don't want, she won't. You know what I mean? Like she does not. I'm like, well, there's something there that is resisting having a decent life and, mind you, I know, if the show continues, there's going to be more ups and downs and more drama, because that's how shows work. But, like from your event, from the vantage point that you're at now, the criminals are gone. Your daughter, you got your daughter back and you've got at least about $400,000 roughly.

Jess:

I think that that's a weird time to leave him. I think that's a weird time to leave him too, and a weird and a weak way to leave him.

Niq:

Cause. If you really felt like that, say that to his. Yes, but once again, she's weak and and that annoys me, and I don't think her weakness has anything to do with her illness no, no, that's a personality trait it has.

Jess:

No, no, her illness is not. That's a personality trait and um, and I don't know, sometimes, like I said, I don't always agree with the reasons, like, and it's not that joe can't be critiqued. Joe is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination and he does make some really bad decisions. But I'm like, but I don't know, there's something that's off to me about the way that they blame Joe, like when they're calling him out about something. I'm like no, there's something you can call him out, but you call him out, but you call him out about stuff that I just feel like they keep calling him out about stuff that he can't help, instead of the things he does.

Niq:

I think, once again, these people are not good criminals. So everybody makes a lot of mistakes, but the people who seem to get dumped on the most are Joe and Leon. Like a lot of times, joe dumps on Leon and everybody. Joe dumps on Leon and everybody else dumps on Joe when everybody's making mistakes. That's true, everybody's making mistakes, everybody's making bad decisions, and so that's why it feels weird, because it's like you know what, he's not the only person you know with problems.

Jess:

And he's not a criminal mastermind.

Niq:

And Leon is also a terrible criminal he is. He's not built for it, he's not.

Jess:

He's at least not built for these types of crimes and he does, I feel like he has. I feel like Leon's character does grow and develops and he kind of finds his spine and his footing towards the end, which I like he does. I like Leon and Kathy love spine and his footing towards the end, which I like he does, I like I. I, leon and kathy love, love them. I love the growth of their relationship. I feel like doing crimes actually makes their relationship better, where crimes made um joe and his wife's relationship worse um right.

Niq:

So in the first episode, when you meet leon and k, like they have that stereotypical unhappy marriage like where they like they, they both mistreat the other and you wonder, like why are they married? Why are they together? And so it really like they. I think that they're having financial troubles, like you learn throughout the show, that they want to have kids, but they faced fertility issues. Basically, their life is not what they imagined it to be. You know they started out. You know he had a thriving business, they wanted kids and they were happy and in love and, like their, their life just kind of has gone down and so they've kind of really, really, really grown apart and so the what makes it hilarious is that, like these crimes, it gives them something to do together, it gives them a way to bond and you actually literally start to understand why they love each other. Because in the first episode I'm like, why is she with him?

Jess:

The first episode. Yeah, why are these two people together? They don't even make sense together. And then you start to see in flashbacks little bits of their relationship before, when it was better. They also start to get closer because Kathy really enjoys the crime and she's a crime show junkie anyway, so she's getting really excited and really getting off on all of this stuff and so her happiness kind of makes their relationship better. Leon has slow growth, but he does have growth and as she starts to see those little glimpses of him, I guess, taking charge of his life and taking charge of the situation, she starts to like him more and you do see their relationship develop. That's one of my favorite elements of the show is watching them.

Niq:

He stands up for her. He takes blame for shooting the guy, the Russian guy, at their home, you know, and so, like all of that stuff, like you can see, oh, you know what. I understand why she loved him. You know I understand why they work well together and, like he, honestly, leon respects kathy a lot, like he believes in her, you know, and he, like he really like he gives her, he empowers her throughout this process and I think that he's like that's one of the few things that you see like no other person is really like empowering each other.

Niq:

Like usually they're, like you said, they dogpile on each other when mistakes are made and there's like a lot of infighting throughout this are made and there's like a lot of infighting throughout this. But, like you literally watch, like Kathy first of all, like try to convince Leon that, yeah, we're working with them. But, hey, it's me and you at the end of the day, and Leon is very, you know, very attached to Joe, very loyal to Joe, and like Kathy's like listen, like this situation is crazy, we're gonna make the best of it, but at the end of the day, it's me and you and like she, she really like it's a huge arc for her Because, like in the first episode, she's literally swiping on Tinder, swiping on Tinder. So to go from that to like hey, you know what? You are the most important person in the world. You know this situation is for our betterment, no matter what else happens.

Jess:

You know this situation is for our betterment, no matter what else happens. You know we love these people. We want these people to win too, but at the end of the day, it's me and you, it's me and you. And then like, okay, she's swiping on tinder the first episode and then he steals the russian's phone and he's looking through all the women the russian was talking to, so he's also looking at women.

Niq:

Now he don't have access to women, but he's still looking at them yes, like their, their relationship was really terrible in the beginning, but it just grows stronger and stronger and stronger and I love that. I love how leon finds himself, finds his confidence, finds the things that he's like, he's good at, and so I like their. Their relationship was one of the best parts of the show because it's also like a lot of comedy in that, but it was also sweet and emotional, like it. Just it was like I loved their relationship and it's so funny because they're not the main couple, they're not, they're not the main couple yes, but they had the most beautiful arc.

Jess:

They did girl.

Niq:

They kept finding them in different places trying to have sex in the trunk, always in the worst, at the worst place, in the worst dead, cut up bodies and they're like in the corner but at the same time it's still like you're still like it's so cute because you, you see them coming back together.

Jess:

Now I will say, in one of the flashbacks we do learn, I think, part of where you start to see a downturn in their relationship when they find out that they can't have kids. Leon really wants kids, I think Kathy did too. At the very least really wanted to be able to give him a kid. And, okay, this irritated me. This part did irritate me and I get it. I get why people would think it's chivalrous, but I'm going to tell you why it bothered me. So they, of course, are trying for a year, have trouble having the kids, so of course, they go get fertility testing. Both of them get tested. They're waiting on the results. The doctor calls with the results. While Kathy is out, leon answers the phone. Now, prior to this, kathy's already said well, what if it's me? What if something's wrong with me?

Jess:

And you could tell it just really bothers her that if she's the reason why they can't have children. So anyway they get the phone. He gets the phone call. What it bothered me that the doctor told him her results without her presence, Without her permission.

Niq:

You can give permission for that to happen.

Jess:

I hope they did. That's a HIPAA violation, anyway, but I don't think you should give I don't think that he should, I think that kind of information. This is specifically about Kathy's body and this is about something in her body not functioning. I feel like he should have gave that information directly to her. I do not care, and especially first, you don't give that information to her husband first, but anyway he gives the information. It's Kathy, something is wrong. She will never be able to have kids. And then Leon, when she gets back home, he tells her, but he takes the blame and pretends like it's him. Let me tell you why this bothered me. I understand this is supposed to be a sweet moment, in a way that he's protecting her and being chivalrous. I've been a woman. I'm a woman. When there's something that doesn't function right in our bodies, it does not cause one issue. She may not have been able to get pregnant, but this could have also been causing other issues. She deserved to know what was going on in her body.

Jess:

I didn't even think about that. That really bothers me. Think about it. Anything like yes, fertility may be one thing, but if it's causing issues with your fertility, it's probably causing issues with your periods. If it's causing you know what I mean. Our bodies are complex. There's a lot going on in our bodies and as a woman looking at that scene, I'm like you need to tell her. I think there's something wrong with her. Maybe her I can't remember what they said it was, but I'm like it's never one thing with us.

Jess:

It's never, one thing, and she deserves to know what's going on in her body. And while you think you're being protective of her, what if something else needed to happen to prevent other issues Like this is not just about having a baby. Something is going on in her body that she needs to know about and so that, yeah, that makes really bothered me.

Niq:

I didn't, I didn't think about that in that scene. I was just like, oh, he really loves her. But no, what you're saying actually makes makes a lot of sense.

Jess:

You know, I got I got pissed off at the hip violation, and then I'm like, and then I'm like, and then like. No, you need to tell her because like what if she needed to have some sort of corrective surgery? What if you know? What if? What if it causes something else down the line? And she has no idea and this could have.

Niq:

She could have known this years ago yeah, that makes sense, but yeah, I did. Well, I did enjoy watching um their relationship evolve, and so the next relationship I want to discuss is my least favorite character, jennifer, joe's daughter and dimitri. And so you find out throughout the course of the show that they were together for six months before Dimitri ends up dying. And once again, I understand that she's young, she's 18 and I understand he. She considers him her first love, but I just feel like she was not prepared for a relationship that was that serious. The way that she handled everything in that relationship, like she was not prepared mentally. I'm like girl, you should not have been having sex. No, you didn't even know who you were having sex with you.

Jess:

Didn't know who you were having sex with you. Didn't know who you were having sex with you are getting. You got pregnant right before you were supposed to go to Carnegie Mellon right.

Niq:

And even if you know, you found out in during the show that she really wants to become an actress and she's really not sure about going to college. Even if you wanted to become an actress, you still should not have been getting pregnant. And so my like you're 18 and you're in this serious relationship you've never heard of birth control, never. Like that's where the sheltering goes too far. That's where the sheltering goes too far. Like she was in this relationship for six months and her parents never said anything to her, never had a conversation with her. Like I have my speech down, I have my, I have my. I don't think that you're mature enough for sex. But here's the thing let's put you on birth control so that we can at least protect you from having a child. But birth control does not protect you from everything and there are worse things to bring home than a baby.

Niq:

Because if she got pregnant, that means she was having unprotected sex and she may also have the russian clap. You know what I'm saying? Is it different from other claps? I don't know. I don't know. But I'm just saying like she was being so irresponsible because if she's not on birth control, do you think she made him take a take an STD test before she started having sex with him? No, and the way he was talking about having sex with her, he was not a virgin when they met.

Jess:

No he wasn't a virgin when they met. And then you know, you got. You got sociopath genes from the father.

Niq:

You know you got sociopath genes from the father, Bad genes, and so I really, you know to me, in their desire to give her a good life, they are not preparing her for the real world. Because she was about to go off to college and I just feel like mentally she was not prepared. She still she very like to me mentally, she's like 13 or 14 years old.

Jess:

The way she handles, I think she's probably look smart, but no comments, right.

Niq:

Exactly, and you have to give kids both and you, you, if you, if you know your child is in a long-term relationship like, be responsible and have those conversations with them and checking in like they had no idea that she was pregnant, not even a clue that she was pregnant. They were literally the last people to find out.

Jess:

I'm gonna say, like you know and not not a lot surprises me and shows, but I was not expecting her to be pregnant. I wasn't either. I wasn't expecting her to be pregnant. I was not, and I was not expecting her down behind to give herself up to the Russians Like what is wrong with you?

Niq:

Here's the thing Once again. I know I keep saying it these people are the worst criminals. And when they were playing hostage roulette, that part of the show was driving me crazy. It's like the mom gets captured. So then Dion wants to offer himself up in exchange for the wife. While he's trying to do that, the daughter is going to offer herself up because she's pregnant with his grandson. So she, you know, assumes that he won't kill her almost immediately. She's like, oh you know what? This was not a good idea. So now beyond has to offer himself up for her, which that's. He was already going to offer himself up for the wife. You put yourself in unnecessary danger and did not help anything.

Jess:

No, whatsoever because of course your parents are not going to settle for you over them. Either parent would rather give themselves up for you. Of course they would. That don't make sense. That's not the way it goes. The kid don't give themselves up for the parents.

Niq:

It never makes. Once again, she makes terrible decisions. She had one good idea that they did not respect, but everything else she did was terrible and this is going to be. I'm going to. Can I say something trifling? Of course, always, thank you. I was a little bit upset when Dion went to give himself up for his wife. Yes, I know it was the right thing to do, but she's once again. She already sick. She's already sick. It's not even also about her like being sick, she's also. She has no good ideas. She serves no purpose. Like. She's not even like a like what. She doesn't bring anything to the table but whining, let her go.

Jess:

I also think that she was willing to sacrifice herself because she was sick, though I feel like she was like well, I think I feel like she was like no, I'm not giving up my husband, I'm already sick, I'll give me and they can have a life um, but of course, no, he's not gonna let I, he's not gonna let um them of course he isn't, but I feel like the reason why she was willing to like give herself up was because in the previous scene her daughter drug her for filth, drug her for filth and basically called her weak and said she was under the thumb of her daddy and she couldn't make her own minds up, make her own decisions.

Niq:

She didn't have any agency. Like she drug her and this is what. This was. What was funny. The daughter did not lie, lie. The daughter went back later and apologized and like I think we were supposed to feel like the daughter was out of line in that scene and I don't know that she was I, I don't know that she was when the mom is like in the middle of a flare-up.

Jess:

Your mom is in pain, she's physically in pain and now you're going to bring her all this emotional pain. It was in poor taste, bad timing, but also the nerve of you, maybe, but did she lie? Because it's not like you make good decisions and it's not like you weren't hung up on this random dude you barely knew. You know what I mean. The nerve of you. You ain't got no reason to call somebody out facts.

Niq:

That's true. But two things can be true. And her mom was a waste of space. She was whiny and weak, she was not serving any purpose and like. So I was like you know what, like somebody in the group, like, are we really going to get out of this cape unscathed? Somebody in the group may have to die, like you know that happens.

Jess:

Okay now, I guess that's my limit is one of the main people dying for the. That's the point where I'm like okay, all these folks, I don't know, they ain't got nothing to do with me. She says.

Niq:

I have no emotional bonds with Russian mobster number three and peanut butter boy seven.

Jess:

Peanut butter boy. I would have felt bad about peanut butter boy. You know, apple is the only one I was like should not have died. Apple should have also called the police and stayed his behind in his house. But I digress, it's still not his fault. Apple should be. Yeah, apple's the only one, apple's the only non-main character I wish was still here. So, yeah, no, the $10 million is not worth it. If he had to give up the wife, the daughter, even Touch, even Touch, I would have because of how close they were.

Niq:

Let's talk about Touch because, honestly, we've only lightly touched on him as a character, and so we really need to delve deep, Because, of all the people in all the main characters, he's the most broken.

Niq:

Yeah, and it's funny because once again, he's the police officer. He's also Caucasian, but this man police officer he's also like Caucasian, but this man is terrible. He's in a terrible place in his life, and so they they kind of explain his backstory. So he's a police officer and he had a girlfriend who had like a six year old daughter, and so one night touch and the girlfriend are drinking heavily and they fall asleep and Touch does not properly secure his weapon and the six-year-old ends up shooting the girlfriend, and so the girlfriend is her mother, of course, and so what Touch does is he stages it to make it seem like his girlfriend committed suicide. He says it's to protect the daughter, but but we all know is to protect his job, and since then he's basically like been reliving the trauma. He's turned to drugs and even though he's been a police officer for a long time, he is like a what do you call it?

Niq:

When they're on foot, like a what's the lowest police officer? Like a patrolman? Yeah, he has a car, but you know as desk jockey yeah, so he has not progressed in his career.

Niq:

He has a horrible drug addiction. He drinks way too much. Like he is like. The reason why he was so open to joining this caper is because he literally has nothing in his life to look forward to. What do you think about his character?

Jess:

I mean, I think all the things that you said are true. He is heavily addicted to drugs. He's using the substances to deal with the memories of what happened to his girlfriend and, I think, the guilt of that situation. The only thing I would add is that, based on that night and something that the girlfriend's mother said, I'm like yeah, I think this addiction started before this and it just got worse.

Niq:

I agree. I agree because there's no way that you drink that much and that's not like you don't already have a problem. It sounds like that was something that they were doing a lot already.

Jess:

It does sound like that was something that they were doing a lot. Yeah, Already it does sound like that was something that they were doing a lot already. But I agree, so he does. I mean Leon and girl I almost said Leon and Dion Girl Leon and Joe. Leon and Joe are like his two most important relationships, because he hasn't been able to sustain a relationship with anybody else ever since. That's very true.

Niq:

Okay. So let me ask you a question. So there's a scene where you find out that Touch has been sending money to the little girl. Like throughout her life he's been like just dropping anonymous money off at her grandmother's house to hopefully take care of her as a way to, like, make himself feel better. So at some point he decides to bite the bullet, get some strength and go and talk to the little girl Tess, right, right. And so you find out from Tess's grandmother that Tess is actually dead, that she committed suicide or OD. Grandmother, that Tess is actually dead, that she committed suicide or OD'd. Yes, she committed suicide. She committed suicide because um of the trauma of shooting her mother and no one believing that she did it, and like the grandmother talks to touch so harshly about that situation. I've never seen someone come down so hard on someone in my life and it was waiting to do that for years she threw all she had been saving, all of the money and she was like take this money, like I'm you, I.

Niq:

I did not expect that scene to go like that.

Niq:

I thought this was his like redemption, you know, because at this point he's like he's went through withdrawal so he's like off of drugs. We don't, we'll see how it happens long term, but like he, you know, he's been off of drugs for a couple days and I thought like this was the beginning of his redemption arc. But the way that woman verbally kicked him in the chest it hurt my feelings, like I was like oh, we don't, you know, maybe we're not going too far. Like somebody get their grandma. She's verbally jumping this man, I mean that's hard to say.

Jess:

I don't think anybody deserves to be told to kill themselves. That's the only thing. The rest of the stuff I mean, it's true, I kind of wish. I kind of wish he had gotten it earlier, if that makes sense. Like I wish he had, you know, went through that earlier, but like there's no way to do that because they just didn't have a connection. Yeah, short of the kill yourself line, I feel like that was the bridge to Spar.

Niq:

Well, the thing about it is the place. He's in such a fragile place because he's just went through detox and he's trying to build. This is not even the first time he's contemplated suicide, right, like he's trying to contemplate a suicide, right. He's trying to, like, deal with these demons, the things that lead him to drink and lead him to drugs. And this woman is basically like as long as you are on the earth breathing, I have no peace. Do the world a favor and end your life, which is insane insane.

Jess:

That is it. Like her, all of her frustrations, I get it. I get why she blames him completely. You know, um, I get all of that. So, like, like I said, I just think, like that that line, it also just was not a good time. You were not well enough to go over there, because what were you gonna do? No, no, if donna had been alive, she also would have had anger towards you and you were not ready she would have.

Niq:

She would have, she would have definitely had anger. But I think the anger from donna, I think, even if she would have told him said the exact same things, it would have been received better. Because what essentially the grandmother was like not only did you take my daughter, you also took my granddaughter and yet somehow you are still alive, right? You know what I'm saying, I think.

Jess:

Donna being alive, he would have made it be held on to see if stuff got better, to try to do something, but with her the knowledge of her being gone, and then the way the grandma came down and he's like I don't have a reason to be here anymore.

Niq:

Um, yeah, no that that that scene was harsh, it was. I'm trying to think. When I have ever seen someone that emotionally vulnerable get curved, stumped verbally, like that? I can't, like that, I cannot think of another time.

Jess:

The grandmother also doesn't know the place that he's in or where he's been. She just knows her side of it. She knows that she does not have a daughter or a granddaughter and she's had to bury and deal with. I'm not justified. Like I said, there's no reason to tell somebody to kill themselves. There's no reason, there's nothing that makes that okay. Um, but she's had to bury a daughter, she's had to bury a granddaughter and she had to deal with the years of the daughter, of the granddaughter's addiction um before that and probably the mom's addiction, because, like I said, it sounds like they were already addicted.

Jess:

So I mean that to some degree addiction kind of sounds like runs in that family. But like she even went through some stuff she has, I'm like what motivated you to go up there? You've been just leaving the money. Why did you knock?

Niq:

on that door Because I think that the money was not enough. He's been leaving the money for years and having nightmares and you know the money was not enough. I think he either needed to face the little girl and own up to what he did you know what I mean. Like he, he needed that closure, or at least that next he needed to take responsibility what he needed was therapy.

Jess:

You were not to do any of those things. And yes, you've been off of drugs for a few days, but mainly because somebody has been forcing you to be off. You know what I mean. So off drugs. So you did not make that decision yourself.

Jess:

The little girl immediately should have been placed in therapy as soon as that situation happened. I don't care if it was, you know. Even if it was accurate, her mom did kill herself, which we know. She didn't, you know, drop her behind, which she might have been, we don't know, because it sounds like she was in treatment on and off but, like everybody in that situation, needed therapy. Like this is, this is traumatic, this is a traumatic death. And he should have been in services from the from the from the beginning, and so should should have she. But at least at this point now where you're like, okay, I've been clean for three days against my will, now let's go get some help with this, let's go get some services and then have somebody work with you and maybe, after you get to a better place, you can go have that conversation and confront her. But he was not ready. Being off drugs alone does not make prepare him for that situation that's true.

Niq:

And also he didn't know what the girl's state was. He probably should have had someone to facilitate that meeting instead of just showing up. But he's only three days off of drugs.

Jess:

He's not thinking clearly what if she didn't want to see you? And that's the other thing. I agree with somebody else facilitating that. Clearly, what if she didn't want to see you? And that's the other thing. I agree with somebody else facilitating that, because clearly the grandma didn't want to see him he didn't want to see that grandma, he just didn't know it.

Niq:

Man, I that. And you know this show has a lot of action. It has twists and turns. That scene, honestly, my mouth was open because I'm like I was tired of watching hard to watch. It was no, no, a hundred percent it was. And like even the like, the aftermath and what he went through it like, when you see the emotional aftermath of that conversation, yeah, those were the hardest scenes to watch in the entire show and it just kind of goes back to how well done this show is because basically you, you touch is a loser and he's been a loser this entire show but you find yourself begging him not to pull the trigger.

Jess:

Girl and and I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm still hoping. I know the gun went off. I'm still hoping he didn't actually kill himself. I'm holding out. Yeah, that like maybe he it went off or he shot himself, because he also. He also does. What is it Girl? The word is like he hurts himself on purpose.

Niq:

Oh, he's a cutter.

Jess:

Not a cutter, but it's self-harm. He does self-harm because, like that, that, when he um, doesn't um, when he's supposed to show up for joe, at the beginning he lays out that plan and he ends up getting high and he stays out all night. He bashes his head into the tree on purpose. Oh, like.

Jess:

You know that scene where he like and then and like, got that huge gash. He did that mess on purpose. Um, so, like he also does self-harm. So I was like, well, maybe he shot himself in the leg and got that huge gas. She did that mess on purpose. He also does self-harm. I was like, well, maybe he shot himself in the leg just to hurt himself and he's still going to be here. I'm still holding out hope that he's going to be here next season, until they tell me he's gone. I can't, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to accept this.

Niq:

I'm sorry. I just see you screaming at Dutch's funeral. That's not. I just see you screaming at Touch's funeral.

Jess:

I just Not even one of my favorite characters.

Niq:

I still. Don't want him to be dead, right, but no, no, that's what I said Like the show. He's a Loser. He's a loser the entire Show. But they make you care about him so deeply that like I'm on his side when the grandma is cussing him out, and then later on, like when he's dealing with the aftermath, I'm like, don't do it touch, don't do it he's gonna get better.

Jess:

Don't do it, yelled at the screen. Don't do it. Don't do it. Put the gun down.

Niq:

Somebody come get him yes, and that that is a.

Jess:

That's a, that's a testament to good character writing you know he was about to kill himself and another Russian popped in how many.

Niq:

Russians are you willing to have die? I don't know these people, I don't touch, and I know and I do want to explore the Russians and what I consider the Russian villain trope in the next episode, and I also want to discuss a character that we really haven't discussed and that's the other police officer in the show and her name is Pam, and so those are two things that I feel like we need to delve into on the next episode. How does that sound? That sounds really good. All right, guys, join us, because we've got more to talk about when it comes to average Joe. We hope you guys really enjoyed it.

Jess:

See you next time.