F* Allison

"Kevin Can F**k Himself" is a unique blend of dark comedy and drama that explores the life of Allison McRoberts, portrayed brilliantly by Annie Murphy. Allison's character is central to the show's narrative, offering a compelling exploration of a woman trapped in a stifling marriage and the sitcom-like existence imposed by her husband, Kevin.

Allison's character is a study in contrasts. On one hand, she is the quintessential sitcom wife, constantly dealing with her husband's antics and often finding herself in ridiculous scenarios. On the other hand, her character's depth is revealed when the show shifts to a more dramatic tone, allowing viewers to see her internal struggles and desires for a better life.

One of the standout aspects of Allison's character is her complexity. She is not just a victim of circumstances but a woman determined to reclaim her life. Her journey towards self-empowerment is both challenging and inspiring, as she navigates the blurred lines between her reality and the sitcom world she's trapped in. The show's clever use of contrasting genres highlights the duality of her existence, making her plight all the more poignant and relatable.

Annie Murphy's performance as Allison is nothing short of exceptional. She brings a nuanced portrayal that captures both the comedic and tragic elements of the character. Her ability to seamlessly transition between the lighthearted and the dramatic showcases her versatility as an actress and adds depth to Allison's character.

Overall, "Kevin Can F**k Himself" offers a refreshing take on the traditional sitcom format by presenting a complex female protagonist like Allison. The show's exploration of her character challenges stereotypes and invites viewers to question the roles women are often confined to, both on-screen and off. For fans of innovative storytelling and strong character development, Allison's journey is definitely worth following.

Chapters

• 0:26 Kevin Can F Himself Characters Analysis
• 10:44 Family Dynamics and Toxic Relationships
• 18:42 Patty's Lack of Agency
• 25:22 Unhealthy Relationships and Manipulation
• 33:23 Allison's Relationships and Neil's Sympathy
• 40:12 Toxic Relationships and Healing Bonds

Transcript

Niq: 0:26

Welcome to another episode of Next Episode with me Niq and Jess. And so today we're going to continue our conversation about Kevin Can F Himself. We spent a lot of time talking about Kevin and breaking down his character, and so now we want to break down some of the other characters in the show and kind of go into a deep dive on. You know what makes them, you know who they are, how they were written, what does it say? What you know, what is the show trying to say, what is the show using them to illustrate? So of course, we talked about Allison.

Niq: 1:04

Allison is Kevin's wife. They've been together for 15 years, married for 10. Neil is Kevin's wife. They've been together for 15 years, married for 10. Neil is Kevin's best friend and Patty is Neil's sister, and so Patty is in the friend group, also with Kevin and with Neil, although sometimes she is treated like ancillary, like an ancillary character, but she is in the friend group and she's been hanging out with them for a long time. Allison has an aunt named Diane, who they work together at this liquor store that Allison's been working at for a very long time, because it's the job that Kevin allows her to have, because he likes the fact that she has a liquor store discount.

Niq: 1:48

We also another character that we also meet is Tammy. Tammy is a police officer who eventually becomes Patty's love interest, which is not my favorite choice that they made, but we'll get into that later. And last character that we want to talk about is Sam, and Sam is really interesting because Sam is one of the few characters that is not connected to Kevin. He's only connected to Allison because they were childhood friends, growing up they used to work together as teenagers and so their relationship and their relationship history is really interesting. But first we're going to start with Allison is really interesting. But first we're going to start with Allison, and so can you kind of give us a like, a kind of bare bones what kind of person do you think Allison is and do you think it made it easier for Kevin to kind of get his hooks in her?

Jess: 2:44

So let's see how would I describe Allison? Allison was a star athlete in high school. She had every reason to like she from the outside. Looking in, she had every reason to be able to excel, to leave the town of Worcester, which a lot of people you know look for it, look at leaving as a good thing. But she had a very broken home life she. She had a narcissistic mother, I would say as well, and a father who also sounds like he might have struggled with alcoholism as well and you really see her mom kind of tear her down and you understand why. You know she does not believe that she can leave or doesn't believe in herself enough to leave and I do think that that makes it easier for Kevin to come in and abuse her once she has that pre-existing relationship with a narcissist and alcoholism, honestly.

Jess: 3:31

But I think describing her like in high school, it sounds like now they only describe her in high school and like her stories or other people's stories about her. So, like I said, she was a star athlete, it sounds like she ran with the it crowd, but it does not sound like she was a nice person in high school. She says that you know she had some friends, but on the swim team which was a big part of her life. But none of the girls on the swim team like which tells me a lot. Let's see if the way you see the other people in the town that knew her, I'm like I, yeah, I don't think she. I think she was kind of mean in high school honestly, and so that kind of tells me a little bit about, like you know, something is off. There's something there. I think there's a recurrent theme for being really in competition with people and so, yeah, I don't think that people. She was well liked but she was well known. But Kevin meets her at the point where at her father's, right after her father's wake, and so that also he meets her at a vulnerable time in her life where she's, you know, she's just lost her father. It seemed like she was closer to her father than her mother, so that was a big loss for her and I think that definitely makes it easier for him to kind of get to get his hooks on her.

Jess: 4:35

I think as a person, I would say and I know it's gonna be controversial because we are talking about a woman who's experienced domestic violence, but one of the things that the show does. That I personally like is that there are no perfect characters here. Like I, I do not like shows with perfect characters, and Allison is not perfect. She is quite frustrating at times and the way she makes decisions and the way she treats people I think Allison is quite selfish. I do.

Jess: 5:02

And so, like the first time I watched it through I wasn't sure what Patty didn't like about her at first. Like I get it towards the end because it becomes obvious. But I didn't sure what Patty didn't like about her at first. Like I get it towards the end because it becomes obvious. But I didn't know why I shouldn't like it at first. I'm like, oh, I can see how Allison is kind of selfish. You know, yes, she's putting up with all this crap from Kevin, but when anybody else is talking to her and he's not in the room, she still has a hard time of talking to anybody.

Niq: 5:24

Now my question is do you think that's because Kevin has? Isolated her and she doesn't have her own independent friends and relationships. So do you think that's why, you know, she has trouble relating? Because those are not her people, those are Kevin's people, you know. So she's not allowed to kind of go out and find her people. She just has to, you know, basically socialize with Kevin's people and they treat her the way that Kevin does.

Jess: 5:52

Even when she's with Sam and Sam calls attention to this the first time she goes to talk to him, before they really kind of get into their affair, she's like, oh, I just needed someone to talk to. And he's like, no, you just needed somebody to agree and to not to vent to and agree with you. Because as soon as he challenges her, she's like, oh, I'm out. You know what I mean. As soon as he starts to talk about something about him, she's like done with the conversation. So I don't think that started with Kevin. I definitely think like the way that he treats her, the way she treated, can exacerbate that, and I do think like she is going through abuse. So that is the forefront of her mind. She's in survival mode, so it's hard to focus on other people's stuff, but I don't think that's where that started. She's also mentioned that she's an only child. Yeah, I think she said something like I don't like to share. I don't think she's had to, you know, really learn how to really drag on Right.

Niq: 6:38

I also wonder if her father did not have some characteristics in common with Kevin, and the reason why I say that is because at the funeral the mom is not broken up, she's not sad, she, you know, sees kind of relief and she's like kind of happy that her husband is dead. You can see that she was not happy in her marriage, which is interesting because now, like Allison, is like I need to be free, he needs to die, but that's how her mom got her freedom.

Jess: 7:12

So the time I watched it and the second time I watched the scene.

Niq: 7:15

The first time I watched the scene, I felt like, oh, the mom is the root of her issues. The mom is the problem and I think her mom is a problem. Alison is a problem, but I would not be surprised if her mom is also a victim. Allison's dad was a police officer. What do we know about police officers? A lot of them have domestic violence issues, and she was talking about how, like she Allison's mom made a comment something like you know, you're just like your dad, you have all of these wild ideas or all of these wild plans and that sounds like Kevin wild plans that aren't based. In fact, I didn't read that that way.

Niq: 8:03

Do I think that her mom could have been more encouraging to her? Yes, absolutely, I don't think her mom was a good mom. That is not what I'm saying, but I'm saying that I don't think it was just the mom that was the problem. I think that maybe her dad had some of the aspects of Kevin. You know what I mean Because you know, when you're a child, like you know, she was very close to her dad, but when you are a child, you view your parents marriage differently than your parents view their marriage.

Niq: 8:33

You know what I'm saying, and so I could see her being a child and only seeing the fun, crazy part of her dad, you know, and not seeing what that did to her mom and the toll that his stuff the things that he did took on took, you know, took her mom through. His stuff, the things that he did took her mom through. And so I'm not sure, because we don't have. I think I swear that sometimes the writers do things like this on purpose. Leave things open to interpretation Because, like I said the first time, yeah, interpretation yeah, I felt more like you felt the first time I watched it.

Jess: 9:06

I strongly disagree.

Niq: 9:09

But the second time I watched it, I was literally watching for nuances. You know what I mean, because the first time I was watching it and I was just like deeply experiencing the story, but the second time I watched it I was looking for nuances, because they put so much effort into small details in the show, so much effort into small details in the show. I was literally looking for what and they're playing with perspective and they're playing with what is the truth. So I was looking for those different ways that things can be interpreted. The second time I watched it, which is when I came to the conclusion that, I wonder, you know, the first time I felt bad for her husband and I felt bad for Allison. And then, the second time I watched it, I still felt bad for Allison, but I'm like I wonder what her mom endured being married to her dad.

Jess: 10:02

Yeah, I don't read that situation the same at all, and I'm not saying that her father wasn't a problem, because, again, there's no perfect people in the story and they definitely allude to alcoholism with the father, but I saw his alcoholism as a way that he coped with the mother. I actually see I don't know that either of them had the zany wild stuff that Kevin does what I saw was narcissism in the mother and trying to break down the dad. So I really see the dad in Allison. I see him similar to Allison. I see the mom as Kevin and the narcissism but not the wild crazy part, just that I'm going to break everything, everybody around me down. I'm going to break down their self-esteem and I'm not going to allow them to grow and I'm going to keep them close to me, and this is why I say that. So when she says that line, you know you're just like your dad, you have all these lofty ideas.

Jess: 10:50

I don't think she said wild. I don't remember the exact word, though, but Allison was talking about going to college. Allison says to her mom I want to go to college. That's not a wild crazy idea. So she was talking about going to college. She's like, basically, to me what I, what I read her saying as he thought too much of himself, like you think too much of yourself. They had just had the conversation about Allison bringing the ham to the wake and she's like we're not ham people. That's the problem. You don't understand that we're not ham people and so again, it's bringing them down, and that's so she says she has the talks about ham.

Niq: 11:23

I, yeah, I heard the ham thing, but I, so this is, these are there's okay, go ahead, land, land your plane, land your plane.

Jess: 11:31

But don't let me, I don't want to lose my, my thought. Okay, thank you, thank you, and so like. So then she goes from the ham thoughts to Allison's, like well, I was thinking next year I could go off to college. And she's breaking Allison down about, about going to college, about why she can't, why she's basically not good enough to go to college. And then she says the line about the father, about your father had all those lofty ideas as well. He thought he was bigger than what he was Basically. He thought he was bigger than Worcester and I spent 30 years bringing him back down to earth.

Jess: 12:01

And I'm like that sounds like she is breaking him down emotionally and breaking everybody around her down emotionally to bring them there. And I think he coped with it through alcoholism, which means, yes, he does have some other problems. But I I do see the father as more of the victim but, like I said, it doesn't mean he don't have problem, problematic behaviors, because I think he coped with it through alcoholism, which again causes other issues. And no, I don't think he was perfect by any stretch of any magic nation. But I see the mom as what opens the door for Kevin and I do still see her as more of the problem, because she's trying to break down like when she talks about it she's not talking to me. She's not talking about bringing him off of doing crazy stuff the kind of crazy stuff that Kevin does, I don't know.

Niq: 12:42

She's trying to bring him down from thinking more of himself when it comes to Allison for example, we don't know what kind of student she was, but we do know she was a good athlete, really really good athlete. And then we know, out of nowhere, in her junior year, she just quit swimming with no explanation. And so, not knowing what kind of student she was and knowing that her one chance to go to college was swimming and she just dropped it, does her mom have a little bit of standing when she's like maybe she doesn't feel like Allison is serious, you know, because we don't know what kind of student she was. We know that she dropped, you know she dropped out of swimming, which would have been her ticket to college. We just don't have enough information. Maybe I'm giving her mom too much grace, but I just feel like there's, there's some space and opportunity for for for nuance there and I just I don't feel like it's all on the mom.

Jess: 13:38

But, with that being said, I definitely not, because at anything, the dad, at the very least, stayed and participated in that toxic cycle. He did not leave her he, you know he continued to to cope through alcoholism, which eventually to me sound like it leave her he. You know he continued to cope through alcoholism which eventually, to me sound like it, led to his death, you know. But again, what do they do? They bring everybody back down. She's trying to keep Allison from going too far. So how do we? Don't, we don't know if the mom didn't isn't part of the reason why she quit school in her junior year? Right, and even if she wasn't the best student, she still could have went to college. She didn't say she wanted to go to Harvard. We know that. You know what I mean. She could have went to a school, but for your mother to be like no college ain't for you.

Niq: 14:17

You know it's hard, especially if your parents didn't go to college. Sometimes it's hard being that first person. But to talk more about teenage Allison, her relationship with Sam. So in the show they're meeting back up and they haven't seen each other since they were teenagers. But when they were teenagers they worked at a restaurant together. Sam had a girlfriend. Allison knew that Sam had a girlfriend and they still used to fool around and she's like, well, I didn't really know her, but you definitely knew that. You know that and I, once again, I like the fact that they give her relationships you know what I mean.

Niq: 14:56

I do like the fact that they give her flaws, but things like that.

Jess: 15:01

This is what like there to me, okay the next thing she says. After that she was like I didn't really know her that well, so it wasn't that big a deal. She was like but I just wanted to feel like I beat her at something. So like the recurring theme of I want to beat someone at something, I want to win. And then when she complains about Kevin, what does she say? He always wins, he always finds a way to win. You know what I mean? Like there's that competitiveness that's in her and how she sees life. So you with this guy that you don't have a girlfriend because it feels like you beat the girl.

Niq: 15:32

When I found that out I'm like do you want me to like her? I'm not sure. Sometimes I honestly feel like they wrote Allison as a person who I could never be friends with, but I still felt for her in her victimhood. You know what I mean. No, I was like I in her victimhood. You know what I mean. But if I met Allison and she was in the situation that she was in, I would not help her because I find her to be unlikable and I would not put myself in the line of fire for her.

Jess: 16:10

And so I do think like and I don't know if this was intentional or unintentional, but one of the messages I got is that there are no perfect victims. She's not, and you don't have to be a perfect victim, because Allison absolutely is not. She's very unlikable at times. You know what I mean. I feel like I saw different places where you probably could have gotten out of the situation she does. When she went to the doctor and they asked her to go to therapy and she refused and she wouldn't even consider it now.

Niq: 16:40

I don't know if she's went to therapy in the past and maybe Kevin found out about it or you know, maybe she had a, you know, it didn't. She felt like it didn't work in the past, but just the way that she just like completely dismissed it, I'm just like I mean, do you, do you want things to get better?

Jess: 17:00

the one thing. The one thing that she needed was the thing that she refused from the beginning.

Niq: 17:04

But then she was like no, sam, I'm not there person, honestly, because, like sam and patty become her hench. So Sam is her childhood best friend, patty is Neil's sister and so Patty and Allison never really had a good relationship. And Allison has like this dream of leaving the neighborhood, her and Kevin buying a house together. They've been saving years and she's like finally ready to like make that move and she and Patty tells her, hey, you guys don't have any savings, kevin has spent it all. And so that kind of begins the relationship between Patty and Allison and I feel like Allison treats Patty and I feel like Allison treats Patty the way that Kevin treats Neil, with the exception that Allison does not go as far Because Allison does not want to be, she doesn't want people to look at her the way that they look at Kevin. So she puts a stop in what she will do, but she honestly she does not think about the consequences of her actions as it pertains to other people. Like she keeps having like the like, as she's trying to kill Kevin and she's needing to do all of these things. She pulls Patty in.

Niq: 18:30

Patty before she became friends with Allison, was she miserable? She was, she was. I feel like she was miserable Before she became friends with Alison, was she miserable? She was, I feel like she was miserable, but she had a. She is, she's a miserable person, she doesn't. I thought she was still miserable, which is what I'm saying. Yes, patty was miserable. Patty didn't want to be happy.

Niq: 18:46

But she was comfortable in her life. She had her own business. She was a drug dealer on the side, although she was trying to be an ethical drug dealer and help people in need. I feel like she was giving herself too much grace. You were a drug dealer. You were not the angel of mercy that you thought you were. You were just. Your salon was not popping until you started selling drugs. But whatever, she wasn't like as soon as, because no one wants those little funky haircuts.

Jess: 19:17

Stop popping as soon as she stops your hair always looks terrible, but any, I digress.

Niq: 19:22

So Patty has her little dry boyfriend, she has her little business, she has her drug selling business and she has her brother, neil, who she takes care of, and she was content with her life. And then she made the mistake of telling Allison the truth and Allison was like I don't have any friends. I'm going to make Patty my friend now because she told me the truth that I should have been able to see right in front of my face. Because Patty says to her he gets packages to your house every other week, he's always buying stuff, he's always spending money. You know, you guys don't have savings.

Jess: 20:02

Come on like you know and and you open account with him years ago and you never look at that account again, so that was disgusting to me it was, but in context. In context, kevin is extremely financially abusive. So who does she have? She says she called the bank and he was right. So does she have the pin number? Can she look it up online? Probably not, honestly, to be honest, to be fair, if I have.

Niq: 20:29

She probably doesn't have anything access If you got to call the bank in this day and age, if one of my paycheck is going into an account, I have to have access to it and more than likely you can't have access to it. But if we're going to share access, there is no way that I don't have access to it. If I have ever put $1 into that account, I have access to it.

Jess: 20:54

But that's you and me who were also very well taught to always take care of yourself financially and always have money, which I'm born in.

Niq: 21:05

This old age.

Jess: 21:07

Women and girls are not taught that. I feel the need to tell them Always have a separate account that he don't know exists. Always, if you deal with men in this life, I don't care if you got a joint account, always have a separate account that he don't know exists, does not have access to. But so many women are not taught that and so many women do. I think so. That's why I think, like it's hard for me to hear it the way it happened because I'm like girl are you crazy, but in reality that's true.

Jess: 21:37

I love when I hear a woman say I don't even know how much my mortgage is.

Niq: 21:40

I do love it when a woman says that, but let me tell you something that situation only works if you're being treated well. That's my thing.

Jess: 21:48

You have to be getting treated exceedingly well, Even if you are being treated well, you still have your separate account like I don't care. I do not care how well you are being treated. If you are a woman who deals with men, you need your own account and that's fine. You ain't got to know what the mortgage, or nothing.

Niq: 22:08

Make sure you got something going off in that little side account every month Little $50 here.

Jess: 22:12

Take care of it.

Niq: 22:14

Trust me, because I don't care how good he is.

Jess: 22:16

They can switch Little something. You don't have to know what more to do. That was our moms and our grandmas.

Niq: 22:23

They always had money tucked away, and so the fact that she's like well, Kevin said I'm bad with money. Well, baby, how are you going to learn if you're not even paying attention to what's going on? If he's so great with money he should be teaching you. How are you ever going to? What if he died before, when you actually cared and wanted him to be alive? What if he died? That part was kind of-.

Jess: 22:48

How are we going to get into any of the accounts for?

Niq: 22:50

me Because I'm like girl, it is 2024. Who lets somebody put money in an account for 10 years and you don't ever check up on the balance Because you're like, oh, we should have enough for a down payment. Well, baby, you don't know how much is in there. You're just mentally calculating how much you think is in there. That bothered me, but anyway. So Patty spills the beans that they don't have the savings and that Kevin has been lying to her when he told her yes, we can move and we can get your dream house. And that starts. You know their relationship. And so, as Allison is on this quest to kill Kevin, I feel like she asked more of Patty than she ever should have. And Patty because Patty lacks agency in any way, shape or form. She goes along with it and that is. I don't understand Patty as a character, like I don't know that I've ever met someone who has lacked agency the way that Patty has.

Jess: 23:53

Patty gravitates to the strongest personality in the room, like whatever. Whoever the strongest, but Neil kind of does the same. You know what I mean. So I don't know, maybe something with how they were brought up or not brought up, because it really sounds like they were not brought up, but they both, they gravitate. So whoever, all you gotta do is disagree with her or, strongly enough, tell her she's gonna do it anyway. And she's gonna do it anyway like she puts up more of a fight than Neal does.

Jess: 24:20

But as we said that you know.

Niq: 24:21

Tammy was spent a you know, a small, a short stint as a drug dealer, and Allison messed that up. Oh I'm sorry. I'm sorry, patty, I'm sorry, patty was a drug dealer and she was dealing Oxy to older people who were having pains and things like that.

Niq: 24:41

Allison messes that situation up, just destroys that situation for Patty. And in the midst of that Patty ends up in a relationship with the police who was investigating the drug ring. So she ends up dating a cop named Tammy and to my recollection that's the first time she'd been in a relationship with a woman. Now let me ask you this Do you think Patty was interested in women before Tammy?

Jess: 25:08

approached her I don't think Patty ever considered it, I don't think she ever considered it before and Tammy asked her that she was like have you never been in a relationship with a woman before? I don't think Patty ever considered it, I don't think she ever considered it before and Tammy asked her that she was like have you never been in a relationship with a woman before? And she gestured or said no or what have you. But that bothered me too.

Jess: 25:23

Their getting together bothered me because Patty wanted some time to kind of From what it looks like Patty had never been in a relationship with a woman and never considered being in a relationship with a woman, never considered being in a relationship with a woman. And so to me she's asking Tammy for some time to just kind of think things through, because this is a new thing for her. And Tammy just bulldozes her and it's like that's not that big a deal and she says can you just let this be hard? You know what I mean? I'm trying to figure. I'm still figuring myself out at like 33. And 33. And so so, yeah, that all says to me.

Niq: 25:56

No, she's never done it, never considered it. But it really bothered me that the fact that Tammy gave her that time to really just kind of, because I feel like she started like using the fact that she was investigating the drug ring at the time. She does not know that Patty is a part of the drug ring, she thinks Patty's just a witness to a drug crime and she uses that as an end to spend time with Patty and I felt like that was abuse of power. So I immediately got the ick.

Niq: 26:24

It was like and so it's like she kind of like pressured her into dating her and I could not figure out if Patty really felt anything for Tammy, like they did not have chemistry. They didn't. They didn't have chemistry, but is that because Patty's dead inside? Okay?

Jess: 26:43

yes, because I do like, I'm like the. I think I don't think the idea of being with a woman necessarily bothered Patty. She just never considered it. I think she genuinely never considered it. Patty has a very narrow view of existence and she was like, oh, I could be with a woman. Well, let me think about it. Tim's like no, you're with me now. But, yeah, it did bother me the way that they got together too. It did feel like an abuse of power and like she just never to me, Tammy, I don't remember what the question was just never to me.

Jess: 27:15

I said do you think they have chemistry? Like tammy never respects, what oh do they have chemistry? They have more than her and kurt. So kurt, her first boyfriend, which they have, none, they had no chemistry. They sit next to each other for three years. They don't even go on dates, they just sit kurt has bones in bland, unseasoned food.

Niq: 27:30

I'm you can't tell me otherwise. Kurt has bones in his basement.

Jess: 27:33

He creeped me out. Kurt is the most uninteresting person that ever lived, so much so I confused him with an extra For a good part of the show. I thought he was that same friend that was with them at the beginning in the flashback scene. I mean so, but I just never.

Niq: 27:51

I could not figure out if she was happy being in a relationship with Tammy, because like Tammy also, I feel like, was trying to isolate.

Niq: 28:02

Patty to a certain extent and you know how abusers are always like I'm trying to help you, I'm trying to protect you, I'm trying to save you. She was doing that with Patty. She was pushing like she was like you're spending too much time around Allison, I don't think she's good for you. But also I feel like she was trying to put some distance between Patty and Neil, which, yes, do they need distance, but it should not have been Tammy creating that distance, just like I feel like even with the relationship with Allison were there toxic parts of that relationship, that friendship, I agree, yes, but it was not Tammy's job to try to separate them.

Jess: 28:40

It wasn't her decision to make. I didn't like that about her either. I felt like she was incredibly pushy and, while I agree, there are things that Tammy is right about, but she went about it the wrong way. Yes, she needs some space from Neil because, like they both need to separate and grow up and have their own lives. Yes, allison is a bad influence on her, but you don't have the right to make that decision for her, and there are several times where she tried to make that decision for her and I did not like that at all. And then she said she said a line like well, patty doesn't know what's good for her, sometimes Right.

Niq: 29:12

Or her trying to make Patty like vodka when Patty said clearly I don't like vodka, but those are the things that happen in the beginning of an abusive relationship. That's weird, that seems small and inconsequential. But then, over time, next thing you know you have no friends, you have no control, you don't have decision making, you don't have agency anymore, don't have like decision making, you don't have agency anymore. And so if their relationship would have progressed, I feel like patty was headed towards an abusive relationship because to me I was starting to see the markers.

Jess: 29:43

Yes, I could see that. I could see that I I felt like it was inappropriate. I felt like tammy was pushy. I don't know that I necessarily went that it I I thought like okay, this is going towards abuse. But not even sure I could see it Because, like, even like trying to get her out of Worcester, even though, again, I agree, tammy needs to Look, not Tammy, I'm sorry. Patty needs to Leave Worcester. She needs to know there's a World outside of here and know everybody else Is not miserable. But she has to make that decision for herself and she gets the right to say, no, I'm staying in this miserable place, if that's what she chooses.

Niq: 30:15

I guess Patty gets her happy ending because in the end her and Allison just get to be like friends together. I think, like when I saw the ending the second time, I'm like I think Patty thinks that her and Allison are going to get married, because I I feel like I don't think this is how it was in the beginning, but by the end of the show I personally feel like Patty was in love with Allison.

Jess: 30:40

Love with Allison and so no, okay, I wanted to ask you that directly because I was like that's the vibes I got. I'm like I do think she's grappling with her sexuality because she's never considered being with a woman before. So some of that is grappling with her sexuality. But I don't think she's in love with Tammy, I think she just likes having someone there. I do too, you know, I do too. I do think she was in love with Allison.

Niq: 31:02

And the reason why is because when Allison left, she just froze and refused to make any moves and made her whole life about finding her. And I'm just like girl, do you understand that? She kind of was a hurricane in your life, like, yes, you guys kind of like bonded and spent some time together, but that was because you were serving a purpose to Alison, you know what I mean. Like Alice, like, like I said, patty and Sean became Allison's henchmen. Sam I'm sorry, it started with an S. I'm like, who is Sean? Sorry? Patty and Sam became Allison's henchmen and she would call them up whenever she was in a bad situation or she needed something and they would drop everything and go and help her and they were both in love with her. And so I feel like she used that to her advantage because, once again, yes, she's a victim, but she's not a good person. She is not a good person and even, like, she created mess after mess after mess.

Niq: 32:13

And when she finally decided that, instead of killing Kevin, she was going to fake her own death. She phrases it as if I'm doing this to help you guys because there's so much stuff going on and I just I, if I leave, I can make everything better. No, ma'am, she had created so many messes in so many fires and everything was piling down, and she knew that everything that she created was about to collapse, and so she left. Now, because she left, patty was able to blame everything on her, which is what they agreed to. But it was not selfless. She wanted to leave. She had decided that she wanted to leave.

Niq: 32:56

Yes, she was having cold feet and she said she wanted to stay. But when she said she wanted to stay, she did not have a plan, because you said you needed to kill Kevin because that was the only way you would be free. Then you decided well, I'm not going to kill Kevin, I'm going to fake my own death. Then, when it's actually time to do the fake your own death. Now you're like well, maybe I want to stay. Were you going to kill Kevin Because you said that was the only way you could stay?

Niq: 33:23

She never came up with a plan on how she could stay and not kill Kevin. Which kind of makes me think about what her mom said. Which kind of makes me think about what her mom said. She just be saying stuff sometimes and she does not think things through. Because even when she says she wanted to fake her own death, she didn't even know how she was going to do it. She had Patty trying to pull out her teeth and she's like well, how are you going to do it? She's like I don't know, I'm going to set Kevin's car on fire and just throw my teeth in the front seat. That doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm a mother. I'm going to keep defending her mom.

Niq: 33:57

She might have had a point.

Jess: 33:58

Never, never, will I ever. That woman is evil. That woman is evil. Yeah, if somebody has broken you down and made you feel like you're stupid your whole life, yeah, it's probably hard for you to think and conceive of plans. But again, I'm sorry. No, no, that mother, the narcissism was strong with that one, absolutely not. She is another one that brings down everybody around her and I think that is her goal and her point.

Jess: 34:22

But the thing is with Allison, I don't think she wanted to leave. I think when that changed her mind she really changed her mind, but it was about to come down on her. And so Allison is a hurricane or a cycle or something. She just brings everybody down around her, but you don't directly know that it's her so like. While it is directly Allison's fault that the drug source dried up and she's no longer a drug dealer, you don't know that she's the one who called the police on the drug dealer who gave up the thing, who gave up the thing. You never know. So the reason why she left is because she had set up Kevin to set up Tammy, to get rid of him again, not considering how getting rid of Tammy would affect Patty, but the way he came up with. It was like oh, you have to sign this affidavit saying that you saw her plants of evidence. And she was like, oh no, that's going to directly come down on me.

Niq: 35:11

I agree.

Jess: 35:12

And then people will know. And I can't pretend to be the good person. That's why she left. There was no other way. I didn't go, cast a shadow on her and that's what she does not do.

Niq: 35:20

I hate that Like was. Oh, she was trying to be a good friend and she's different than Kevin. No, no, because they're not, because she's willing to weaponize Kevin when it suits her, she will stick Kevin on people you know what I mean when it solves her problem and I'm like, why would you, if he's so terrible, why would you unleash him on someone else?

Jess: 35:45

Right, not knowing what he's going to do, because this man has set fires, he has put sugar in people's tanks, he's done crazy stuff to people, so you unleash them. But it really pissed me. As much as I did not like Tammy, that pissed me off Because I'm like this woman is already struggling. She's the best police officer in there. Say what you want about her, she's a good detective and she's the best one there and she never gets promoted. And so you're about to ruin this black woman's career and you know, I'm like who's already struggling in this town, who literally will not promote her just because she's black and gay, and you're about to ruin her career just so that the slightest little shadow doesn't cast on you. You know what I mean? Absolutely, not Absolutely and not considered okay. So then if Tammy, loses her job.

Niq: 36:29

No, they're not living together. No, because remember they're together and Tammy asked Patty to move in, but they're together. Patty thought about it and she said yes, but she hadn't actually moved in with her. And then later on they actually move into Patty's house when Allison leaves, moved in. Yeah.

Jess: 36:48

Okay so, but either way they're together and you know she's with your friend that you supposedly care about, but you were still willing to throw her under the bus just for your own personal gain. So, no, she's not selfish. And you didn't even consider what that would do to Patty. You and Tammy are not friends, I get it, but you would not even consider what that would do to Patty. You know, let's say you and Tammy are not friends, I get it, but you don't even, you would not even consider what that did, what that would do to Patty. And then again, you're not, you're certainly not considering the racial implications of what Tammy's already gone through at that police office and cause. You didn't care.

Niq: 37:18

When your husband is lighting fires, call the neighbors foreigners, and so we've kind of talked about Allison's relationship with Patty and and and Tammy, of talked about Allison's relationship with Patty and Tammy. What about Neil? Because I have a lot of feelings when it comes to Neil, because I'm just like Neil is not a good person, but I have sympathies for him. Maybe I'm not too sympathetic to people like no, because I feel I do feel sympathy for him because I know his childhood. His mom died when he was young. His dad was absent. Basically, patty raised him and I personally she is, but she raised him. She's three years younger than him.

Niq: 38:01

I was younger than him, but I also think that he's not all there.

Jess: 38:05

And I agree, I agree. So here's the weird thing. I had sympathy for Neil the first watch. The second watch, I actually lost some Because I think I saw a little bit more of how much he plays into. Like he plays dumb in order to get other people to take care of him. One he refuses to grow up. You know what I mean. Like he refuses to grow up, and yes, what I mean. Like he refuses to grow up, and yes, but Patty had the same hard childhood as you did and Patty still, at least at the bare minimum, maintains a job and maintains that mortgage. You act as if somebody owes you something. You know what I mean. Like somebody, like people to take care of you, at least in the way that he talks to Patty Now, while Kevin is paying his bills, he doesn't talk to Kevin that way, but he talks to Patty like she owes him something.

Niq: 38:59

Yeah, I agree, I'm going to tell you I have certain sympathies for him, but what was so shocking was the scene where he was hiding and he overheard patty and allison talking about how they were going to kill kevin. And he attacks allison because he's trying to call kevin and allison is trying to grab his phone and he attacks her and it was way more violent than anything that happened on the show and because I was so used to like the sitcom veneer and moving over to the drama but the drama is usually more emotional than actual violence it was shocking the way that he attacked her.

Jess: 39:37

Yeah, Okay, okay, I'm going to pause.

Niq: 39:44

I'll be right back. Okay, okay, sorry about that. Hello, so we were talking about Neil. All right, I will cut. And how violent that attack was on Allison Because, once again, neil is tall and Neil is big compared to Allison and he, I feel like, was more violent than was even necessary when he was trying to get his phone away from her and the way he was choking her and to the fact that Patty, who had to actually hit him over the head and literally cracked his skull in order to get him off of Allison.

Niq: 40:45

That was so shocking to me. It was so shocking it was.

Jess: 40:50

It really was, yeah that was hard to watch.

Niq: 40:53

What was interesting was the end in the aftermath. So Patty hits Neil and then Allison hits Neil because Neil threatens to go to the police about what's going on and Patty hitting him he's. He's been attacked twice in a short period of time. They end up taking him next door and kind of holding him hostage for a few days. Eventually patty takes him to the hospital because she's very concerned, you know, with him. And then, after this incident, neil experiences ptsd, which I find interesting because, yeah, you were excessively violent and you've also been party to the abuse that kevin has been giving to allison.

Niq: 41:40

He ver neil, verbally abuses allison, allison, you know, I and I'm like how are you traumatized by this situation when you were violent in the same situation?

Jess: 41:55

Yeah Right, Well, I mean, I think it is an interesting take on it that he has the PTSD from it, but he did get hit and it doesn't necessarily I guess it doesn't have to make sense. You know what I mean? Like, the whole scene was a lot, so I did find it interesting that he was the one that had it but and he also probably you know, maybe had a bit before.

Niq: 42:16

You know, there's a lot of stuff about their childhood that they allude to violence okay, let me also ask do you think that part of the reason why he had the PTSD was because whenever he would tell someone what happened to him, no one would believe him? Do you think that was also part of the reason?

Jess: 42:35

Which, when he would tell them what happened as far as Allison wanted to kill Kevin he went around and he told Kevin.

Niq: 42:42

He told any and everybody who would listen, all of his friends, everybody, they know. He would go around and say, hey, allison's trying to kill Kevin and she hit me and to try to hide it and everyone's like you need to stop drinking or you know, laughing his face and no one took it seriously. Do you think that added to the PTSD or do you think he would have had PTSD like regardless?

Jess: 43:05

I think he would have definitely had it regardless because, like, whenever he flashes back, he flashes right to the hit. You know what I mean. Like he flashes back to the hit, he doesn't necessarily flash back to the part of it that he participated in, the choking or anything like that, but it definitely doesn't help and it definitely keeps him from getting the actual. Well, I don't know that he would ever seek the actual help he needs, but I think the people not taking him seriously prevents him from getting help.

Niq: 43:27

Neal did violently attack Allison wholeheartedly. Do you think she used that as a weapon she did? The fact that he attacked her Absolutely.

Jess: 43:39

She used everything, to the point where Patty says at some point, stop showing me your bruises. You know what I mean, because every time Patty would waver in what she wanted her to do. In regards to Neal, which was her, allison's response was horrible to keep that bed in the prison for two days. They should have took him to the hospital immediately. That is horrible, that is abusive, quite honestly. But every time Patty would be like I don't know, maybe she should go to the hospital.

Niq: 44:02

she would pull down her thing and show her and Patty told her to stop, because we know that Kevin is also hurting Allison.

Niq: 44:09

So, yeah, she weaponized everything. They show it, but they show it in the sitcom realm. But notice, I feel like she never weaponizes the bruises that Kevin gives her, the way that she used the bruises that Ne Neil gave her as a way to control Patty. Allison is not a good person. She did not deserve the stuff that Kevin did to her, because no one deserves to be treated that way. But Allison is also extremely abusive and she is also a problem. And once again, I always wonder how, if you are being abused right, and you know how it makes you feel how you can then turn around and abuse someone else. You know you're being manipulated. How can you then turn around and manipulate someone else and be okay with that? Well, and that's why I'm like, that's why I keep saying she participates in that sort of toxic cycle of abuse.

Jess: 45:04

You know what I mean. And to some degree and that's why I'm like, that's why I keep saying she participates in that sort of toxic cycle of abuse. You know what I mean. And to some degree and I'm not justifying it but she sees that manipulation as her only way out. So like, oh, I can't really leave, but I can manipulate Kevin into doing what I want to do for me. I can't really let Neal go to the hospital, but I'll manipulate Patty into keeping them here or whatever, so that I don't get in trouble. Right, but none of the things are the things that would need to happen to actually break the cycle.

Niq: 45:35

I want to pivot and talk about her relationship with Diane, because it's one of the few I feel like arcs. There's to me not a lot of character growth in this show. A lot of the people have really messed up lives and were in really terrible places. When the show starts and when the show ends there is not a lot of growth. But Diane is someone who one does grow in the show. But even her relationship with Allison grows in the show in a way that's actually healthy.

Niq: 46:10

How crazy when we, when I first watched the show and first saw, like you know, her relationship with diane, I was kind of annoyed because diane was always giving kevin compliments and I'm like, how are you complimenting him? You like, why can't you see what he's doing to Allison? Also, because you are in a very similar situation and you know there comes a point in the story where Diane is starting to understand more of what Allison is going through, or at least of the fact that Allison is not happy and does not want to stay and she starts to assist her in that and even though, like, diane is open to helping her, allison still uses diane, like when, uh, diane finds out her husband is cheating on her. Allison convinces her to go and talk to a private detective. Not because diane needs the services of a private detective at all. Allison needs those services and she's trying to get Diane to pay the $350 so she can talk to her. But I really feel like if she would have just asked Diane- for it.

Niq: 47:14

Diane would have just given it to her.

Jess: 47:15

She would have gave it to her. Yeah, absolutely.

Niq: 47:19

I love that the guy called her out about that too.

Jess: 47:21

He was one of the people that Allison could not use yeah, yeah, because he kept calling her out and he kept saying, saying, and he was very clear in his boundaries what he was going to do, what he wasn't going to do, absolutely. But yeah, no, she definitely. That's the thing. She has a very kind of using relationship with everybody in the situation she will weaponize Kevin when it suits her.

Niq: 47:41

To some degree, I did feel like her relationship with Diane at some point got more real and got more emotional.

Niq: 47:49

Of course that happened, because Diane is doing all of these things to help her, but I felt like in that moment, alison did feel love in a way that she probably has never gotten from her mom. You know what I mean, and so I feel like that was beautiful and I feel like that was healing for Diane too. You know what I'm saying To love her like that, yeah, and I feel like that was healing for.

Jess: 48:07

Diane too. You know what.

Niq: 48:07

I'm saying To love her like that.

Jess: 48:09

Yeah, agreed, agreed. I completely agree. Diane alludes to the fact that she thinks of her and has always thought of her, kind of like a daughter. She's definitely more nurturing than her mother has ever been, even in when she was back there. You know, even at the beginning, where she's still in the boys and boys mindset this is marriage she's still trying to mentor her and love her in her way. So I still think she's probably all her life been more nurturing than her actual mother. But yeah, she does grow. Diane is also working on herself. Diane goes to AA, she stops, she stopped drinking. She's doing different things to clean up her life. She doesn't. She like kind of, to some degree, will take two step forward and two steps back. And what was the catalyst for her to stop drinking? And so she's making?

Niq: 48:49

pinpointed. The second time I watched it and I could not quite pinpoint what, at what point she stopped drinking, because you don't find out that she stopped drinking until after it's been a long while. There's hints and clues, but you don't know for sure until she's like oh, I've been sober for 212 days and so I'm like, okay, I'm trying to pinpoint what was the turning point that made her realize I have a problem with alcohol, because she does have a problem. But, honestly, diane's problem with alcohol is not even she's, not even the worst alcoholic in the show. So when she became sober, I was kind of surprised because I'm like, oh there, are other people who really need this more than you do, but I was thankful that she actually had that growth Absolutely.

Jess: 49:38

Absolutely. I thought she said 212 days because I felt like she credited Neil, her relationship with Neil, with her getting sober because she said something like she couldn't get sober until she met the. Her getting sober because she said something like she couldn't get sober until she met the guy, even though she knew she wasn't supposed to be with him. She thought it was okay because she met him before she started getting sober.

Niq: 49:55

Allison has been gone for six months. That's 180 days right there. So it makes sense that it was around the time that she was dating Neil, because when her and Allison are in the bar and Allison gives her the drink and she doesn't drink it, she's already started sleeping with Neal she doesn't drink the beer.

Niq: 50:20

Diane and Neal end up sleeping together, and so I don't know if it was when she started her affair with Neal or if she had already. It was when she started her affair with Neil, or if she had already gotten sober and then started her affair with Neil. I wish I knew more clearly. What was the catalyst to make her say you know what? I have a problem, yeah.

Jess: 50:41

I don't know, but she does, she definitely does. But she credits her relationship with Neil.

Niq: 50:44

But even when her relationship with Neil kind of falls apart because they kind of date for a while. They break up, you know, because she's married the entire time and Neil wants more than what she's willing to give him, which I loved the fact that she had boundaries, because she doesn't have boundaries when it comes to her marriage. Her husband treats her like trash. When she starts this affair with Neil, she's getting exactly what she wants, and when she doesn't get what she wants, she walks away from him and eventually he comes back and they spend time. But when Neil pushes her for more she's like no, you're not worthy of what you want from me. And I love it because she could have easily like switch places with Patty and then the new person to like raise Neil, the forever baby. But she, she on it, so like she to me.

Jess: 51:40

I was worried about that.

Niq: 51:41

She has the best growth arc. The best growth arc, you know, I wish we knew for sure. Did we? Do we know for sure? Did she leave her husband? Okay, I think that I think she's still married to him. No, no, I'm hoping that eventually, because you know she's sober, she has those boundaries in place with neil. You know she's taking control of her life and she's like looking for her own happiness. I want to keep talking because there's still so much to dig into, but I know this episode is trending a little long. So thank you, guys, so much for listening to this episode. In the next episode we're going to continue with our character breakdowns and I'm especially excited to talk about sam and the good guy trope. So tune in for our next episode, guys. Thank you.